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Fun With Phosphates
The blogosphere had a few laughs last week at the expense of RedState head honcho Eric Erickson, who warned that revolution was coming and told residents of Washington state, "I’d be cleaning my gun right about now waiting to protect my property from the coming riots or the government apparatchiks coming to enforce nonsensical legislation." The subject was.....phosphate-free dishwasher detergent.
Seriously. But guess what? This story isn't quite the stuff of populist wrath Erickson thinks. Yes, Spokane has banned the dishwasher detergent with phosphates and Washington state will follow suit next year. 
And yes, residents of Spokane have been sneaking into Idaho to buy boxes of Cascade and Electrasol. But check this out, from today's LA Times:
For those inclined to chuckle at the travails of distant, desperate people with dirty dishes, consider this: The detergent industry has pledged to make every automatic dishwashing soap sold in the U.S. and Canada nearly phosphate-free by mid-2010.
With 12 states — including Washington — phasing in low-phosphate laws by the end of next year and four others considering them, industry officials say they are gearing up to produce a new generation of products that will clean dishes while not harming lakes and streams. (The California Legislature passed a phosphate law last year, but Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger vetoed it.)
The pledge marks a significant turnaround for an industry that until recently not only opposed such laws but also warned that many phosphate-free dishwashing detergents didn't work the way consumers expected them to.
But plenty soon will be available, said Dennis Griesing, vice president of government affairs for the Washington, D.C.-based Soap and Detergent Assn.
So here's the deal. Phosphates really are a danger, creating runoff that kills fish and plants. And Spokane has a uniquely bad problem with phosphates. And apparently it's entirely possible to create phosphate-free detergents. The industry just didn't feel like doing it.
But now their hands are being forced. And guess what? It turns out they can do it after all. Imagine that.
I'm sure the detergent
I'm sure the detergent companies will do what they have to do, but that doesn't prove that the new formulations will work as well as the old ones.
For comparison, a couple of years ago the government banned over-the-counter sale of pseudophedrine, so all the drug companies started selling "reformulated" cold medicines with phenylephrine. And now the medicines don't help my cold anymore!
So I hope you are right, but we'll have to wait and see.
I think phosphate is only
I think phosphate is only added as a water softener to make the actual detergents more effective. In locations with soft water it makes no sense. In places with hard water you can either use a different softener or different/more surfactants to deal with water hardness.
Basically, for the most efficiency you need specialized local formulations and maybe even different styles of washing machine for local conditions.
Clean high grade phosphate ore is also a globally limited commodity. 100 years from now this fact is probably going to limit agricultural production, effect costs, and/or result in heavy metals in our food as lower grade ore starts being used.
Yeah the pseudophedrine
Yeah the pseudophedrine substitutes suck. Now you can barely get the real stuff behind the counter. But I'm pretty sure the Allegra manufacturer, HMOs, and AMA are behind it, not just big government. Cheap effective over the counter medicine is the bane of health industry.
Yeah the pseudophedrine
The chemical is used in the manufacture of the illegal drug meth. Drug makers regularly purchased entire stocks of OTC products containing it. That is why it was banned in OTC products.
I have been using
I have been using phosphate-free powdered dishwasher detergent (made by Seventh Generation) for upwards of six years. It works just as well as the stuff with phosphates, and I just scrape dishes before they go into the machine -- no rinse necessary. There is absolutely nothing wrong with phosphate-free detergent. My only complaint is that the Seventh Generation is expensive, but if all manufacturers start making phosphate-free detergent, hopefully the price will go down.
It might be just a fluke,
It might be just a fluke, but my local chain pharamacy still sells a generic pseudoephedrine medicine right off the shelf. Works fine.
On the phosphates: cold, dead hands. Enough said.
phun with fosfates
I don't care about my dishes.
Can I still clean my guns with phosphates?
Fertilizer, not poison.
IIRC, phosphate acts as a fertilizer. So technically it is incorrect to call it toxic. I don't think it kills, plants/fish, but it can cause algae to grow, and that could lead to low oxygen levels. As felinecannonball mentioned above, phosphate is very important for our present civilization as fertilizer. I don't think we have 100 years of supply left either. So in addition to not messing up lakes and streams by using it like this, we ought to be conserving the supply, not flushing it away with our dishwater.
Where I live (near Kevin)
Where I live (near Kevin) the water is very hard and the phosphate-free detergents don't work well. With a heavy environmental heart I put a small amount of Glass Magic, which is pretty much pure phosphates, into each load of dishes.
More scraping doesn't work. Surfactants don't work. Glass Magic is the only thing I tried that did it.
best dishwasher soap ever...
tagged as:- result
is from Ecover and comes in tablets, so no measuring. Ecover boasts of their environmental record, where workers bicycle to work, and the water goes out cleaner than it comes in. The only disappointing thing is the product has to be shipped from Europe. I lived in CA's Central Valley, which has the hardest water in the whole country and they worked great, even in a cheap apartment dishwasher - no prerinsing required.
phosphates
we ought to be conserving the supply, not flushing it away with our dishwater
Google "Greywater" Interesting reading. There seems to be a lot of disagreement on the details, but not on the principles.
(OT -- a lot of people including me bitch about the site, but being able to edit one's own comments is a big, big plus.)
More than not feeling like it
I dunno, Kevin. We tried phosphate-free detergent in our dishwasher and found that our glasses started getting really cloudy. I imagine the industry knows this and knows that customers won't be happy with it. It'll be interesting to see consumer reaction if the new detergents don't solve this problem.
For Gods sake, the industry
For Gods sake, the industry has been talking about this (and using zeolites or silicates as substitutes as detergent builders for water softening) for over a decade and a half. Sweden and France have already banned phosphates, and the UK and the EU as a whole are considering a ban.
"Where I live (near Kevin) the water is very hard and the phosphate-free detergents don't work well."
That's 'cos the only phosphate-free ones are the Ecover and other "eco-friendly" brands etc., which are very restricted in the formulations they use (they're made from jism of free range whales given only organically farmed plankton or some other shite). Once you can get phosphate-free detergents that contain surfactants that actually frigging work, you'll be OK.
Consumer Reports
From the Consumer Reports website:
Consumer Reports doesn't generally give much of a crap about protecting the environment for its own sake. They judge each product on how well it performs, so if they say that the 7th Gen and Ecover detergents work "good to excellent", then you can safely say that your dishes will be clean even without phosphates.
Or you could do what I do and just wash everything by hand, which takes pretty much the same amount of time as scraping/cleaning/putting in dishwasher.
Handwashing
unless you're real parsimonious with water in your hand washing, a good dishwasher is likely to use less water (and thus less energy heating it) washing a full load than you will.
phosphates
We regularly use Palmolive's phosphate-free dishwasher liquid, and it works just fine. It's actually cheaper than the regular stuff.
Don't you think all this
Don't you think all this whining about the need to use phophate-laden detergent or otherwise "my dishwasher might leave my glasses cloudy" really belongs in the pages of the New York Times alongside stories like "I Hate my iPhone!" and "Look at Me: I Actually Drove a Hybrid!"
I didn't read any whining,
I didn't read any whining, or even any disagreement with the phosphate ban, which may well be necessary.
I am merely disputing the logic of the post, namely that because firms are planning to supply phosphate-free detergent in response to regulation, this proves that phosphate-free detergent works just as well, and any industry resistance must therefore be only because the "industry just didn't feel like doing it." That's a faulty argument.
Clean dishes the old fashioned way...
...how about a dish scrubby? Does the trick for me.
Some people are really lame.
Depend's on your water
Around these parts the water is HARD and even with a softener you get mineral buildup. They banned phosphates awhile ago but you can still get phosphoric acid at a hardware store and nothing cuts mineral buildup as well as phosphoric acid.
I'm willing to try something else but I'd need to see it to believe it, because I've tried a fair amount of other products with generally poor results.
Tripp
C'mon, Kevvy.
Phosphates really are a danger, creating runoff that kills fish and plants. And Spokane has a uniquely bad problem with phosphates. And apparently it's entirely possible to create phosphate-free detergents. The industry just didn't feel like doing it.
Yes, that's it. The evil industry types just didn't feel like doing the right thing because of their overwhelming evilness. Maybe they had some idea of the problems (that have been raised in this very thread) consumers would encounter with phosphate free products.
Jeez. It's like you turn into an even extra-moronic version of Benen sometimes.
How dare they
tagged as:- solution
I have been saying for years that the democRATs have been pushing us towards Socialism and then Communism. I recently realized that it is really Fascism that is their goal.
Big government has no right to do the outlaw of effective dishwasher chemicals. Enviro-fascists have been making up reasons to control the way you act in the privecy of your own home for years. This is another step towards Fascism and the confiscation of our guns. If some plants or animals can't survive in modern times, then they deserve to go extinct. Others will take their place in the great food chain of life. To expect me (the AMERICAN People) to give up my rights in this way goes against the bill of rights in the Declaration of this great country. If these Enviro-Fascists don't like it, they can move away.
Deane
Deane,
Good one, although most wingnuts won't mention the Bill of Rights, even incorrectly.
Tripp
In the late '80s in France,
In the late '80s in France, detergent companies were already running TV ads touting their green cred because their soap had no phosphates.
All I'm saying is, the French loved it. Yes, RedStaters should be reaching for their guns.
Really?
Are we really having a discussion about dishwashing detergent? Really?
OK, I know it's really about phosphates, but seriously, "oh my god, my glasses have spots!" Oh no!
If we don't have more important things to worry about than mineral build-up on our dishes & glasses then maybe this whole New Great Depression thing is being blown way out of proportion.
If you don't care what phosphates do downstream then go ahead, buy phosphates. Just like if you don't care what industrial meat production does to its surrounding environment, go right ahead. Someday these commie fascist leftie hippie bullshit problems are going to kick us in the ass and all the "in the privacy of my own home" arguments will seem rather silly and selfish in retrospect.
What are you, 12?
Industry "didn't feel like doing it?" Please!
You know, Kevin, you've got a prominent platform here on the interwebs, writing for a big brand name progressive publication. Don't be saying things like "industry didn't feel like doing it." It shows that you are shallow as hell.
Industry doesn't do "feelings." They do research. They have actual money on the line, and actual shareholders who by law they must pay attention to. They also have customers, and they try to keep close track of whether those customers are planning to continue buying the product. That's where the "feelings" come in. If the customers aren't feeling the clean dishes, they aren't buying the soap. The soap makers know this and it terrifies them. You make them seem lazy, like your college roommates. No, the problem is, their customers are spoiled. They are used to a certain standard of cleanliness in dishes. The tradeoff between that sparkle and the environment hasn't been made clear enough to them. The fact is, the only environmental progress that is ever made and is ever going to be made depends on the broad general public agreeing to have less, to reduce their perceived quality of life, to spend more to get less. There is no free ride here, no shelter in "false choice" rhetoric. Taking care of the environment costs. And there's no way to shift all the cost to hated ones like "industry." Life just doesn't work that way.
But you know this, right? You're just posturing here. Right? Please answer me. Right? Oh God....
"And apparently it's
"And apparently it's entirely possible to create phosphate-free detergents. The industry just didn't feel like doing it."
Feelings, nothing more than feelings...
I ditto the denunciations above. Apparently, manufacturers didn't "feel" like making a more expensive, less effective detergent, especially in competition with ruthless, uncaring mercenaries who would continue to make the cheaper, more effective stuff.
Left unexcerpted from the story:
"Previous attempts to phase out dishwasher phosphates in Europe and a brief trial in Arizona met with implacable consumer resistance."
My goodness, even the Euros said no. Guess they didn't feel like buying it.
And this:
""We sort of warned Spokane that things wouldn't be ready by 2008. We had told people it's not enough time to get our best products out there," Griesing said. "We have to do the R&D, restructure our chemical supply lines, maybe build some new plants.
"This is going to be a national changeover. I can't emphasize this enough.""
I guess if everyone has to switch the manufacturers won't be undercut by the competition, but this is not being touted as cheaper or better for the dishwashing public.
There are technical reasons
There are technical reasons why we used CFCs for refrigeration and had lead in paint and gasoline. We then identified reasons why these things were bad ideas and we got alternatives. These alternatives work just fine, thank you. Factories belched soot and pollution into the air. We heard no end of complaints about the high costs of fixing this - ignoring, of course, the high cost of treating all of the people who were made ill.
People in this thread are completely missing the concept of externalities. Phosphates *seem* cheap because the people using them don't actually have to deal with the consequences of that usage. This is just like looking at the costs of removing freon from our cooling systems without looking at the costs of destroying the ozone layer.
We add the condition "don't pollute the water" to detergent makers and let the market come up with the most effective way to achieve this end. We end up with things which work just as well...
And that don't pollute the water.
Imagine that.
That's 'cos the only
That's 'cos the only phosphate-free ones are the Ecover and other "eco-friendly" brands etc., which are very restricted in the formulations they use
We tried every detergent available in the local stores. Nothing worked until we added Glass Magic. Now all of them work fine as long as we add the dose of phosphates.
Don't you think all this whining about the need to use phophate-laden detergent or otherwise "my dishwasher might leave my glasses cloudy" really belongs in the pages of the New York Times
I don't mind the cloudy appearance. What bothers me is the taste. The drinking glasses are unusable. The film just tastes horrid.
...how about a dish scrubby? Does the trick for me.
Some people are really lame.
We purchased a dishwasher that has very low water use in order to save water. Washing by hand uses much more water than does a well-designed machine.
OK, I know it's really about phosphates, but seriously, "oh my god, my glasses have spots!" Oh no!
I don't give a rotund rodents rump about spots. Without a phosphate additive our dishes have a cloudy film that renders them unusable. The taste is appalling. We can't drink from the glasses or cook in the pots.
Our family does about everything we can to live lightly on the planet. We compost our kitchen scraps, walk everywhere we can, have solar panels on our roof, take public transportation, grow some of our food, eat little or no meat, use fluorescent and LED lights, and have even converted a car to plug-in electric. We are not lazy about our commitment to green living. If I could figure out how to wash the dishes without phosphates I would happily do it.
Here's your
Here's your slap-down:
http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2009/04/feelings-nothing-more-than-feelings.html
Hasn't anyone here heard of
Hasn't anyone here heard of a water softener for pete's sake? Of your water is so hard that you have to use some high phosphate soap then go out and buy a bloody water softener - it will help with your clothes as well as mineral buildup in your pipes. Anyone within spitting distance of Lake Erie knows the effect of phosphate runoff - it was virtually dead in the 70's.
"My goodness, even the Euros
"My goodness, even the Euros said no. Guess they didn't feel like buying it.
Maguire, you're full of it. I used to follow the detergent industry as part of my job. I remember the phasing out of phosphates from laundry detergents in the UK in the early 1990s. The Swiss phased out phosphates in 1986; the Czechs in 2000, the Slovenians in 2004. Kevin is right that there's inertia in the industry, as there's only 3.5 soapers (P&G, Colgate, Unilever, and Henkel as a minor player) in the industry.
Consumer Reports indicated that phosphate-free cleaners worked just as well a phosphate-containing detergents, because of the higher use of enzymes in the phosphate-free detergents.
By the way, thanks for deleting my comment on your blog pointing out the above, and that you'd totally misread a toxicology paper on phosphate substitutes.
"My goodness, even the Euros
"My goodness, even the Euros said no. Guess they didn't feel like buying it.
Maguire, you're full of it. I used to follow the detergent industry as part of my job. I remember the phasing out of phosphates from laundry detergents in the UK in the early 1990s. The Swiss phased out phosphates in 1986; the Czechs in 2000, the Slovenians in 2004. Kevin is right that there's inertia in the industry, as there's only 3.5 soapers (P&G, Colgate, Unilever, and Henkel as a minor player) in the industry.
Consumer Reports indicated that phosphate-free cleaners worked just as well a phosphate-containing detergents, because of the higher use of enzymes in the phosphate-free detergents.
By the way, thanks for deleting my comment on your blog pointing out the above, and that you'd totally misread a toxicology paper on phosphate substitutes.