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Death is Public, So Why Not Taxes?
Via Alex Tabarrok, this AP dispatch on egalitarianism gone wild is pretty interesting:
In a move that would be unthinkable elsewhere, tax authorities in Norway have issued the "skatteliste," or "tax list," for 2008 to the media under a law designed to uphold the country's tradition of transparency.
....To non-Scandinavians, it would seem to be a gross violation of privacy. The tax list stirs up a media frenzy, with splashy headlines revealing oil-rich Norway's wealthiest man, woman and celebrity couple.
....The information had been available to media until 2004, when a more conservative government banned the publication of tax records. Three years later, a new, more liberal government reversed the legislation and also made it possible for media to obtain tax information digitally and disseminate it online. Norway's 2007 law emphasized that ''first and foremost, it's the press that can contribute to a critical debate'' on wealth and the elaborate tax scheme that, along with the country's oil wealth, keeps Norway's extensive — and expensive — welfare system afloat.
Apparently the Norwegian data includes total wealth, not just income, which is a little surprising. Does Norway have a wealth tax?
UPDATE: Turns out the United States tried this experiment for a couple of years back in the 1920s. However, "popular discomfort with the 1924 experiment prompted lawmakers to repeal the publicity provision two years later." Thanks to Philip Klinkner for the pointer.
Hmmmm
Maybe it is time to try the experiment again. Sunlight is the best disinfectant. I'd have no problem disclosing the taxes I paid if everyone else did the same.
Maybe it is time for some real openness and transparency.
Tripp
Is what released "merely"
Is what released "merely" the taxes, or the complete tax information?
Releasing the complete tax forms is a privacy nightmare waiting to happen. Fields that should be redacted and aren't.
Releasing just the number at the bottom doesn't tell the whole story either. Doesn't talk about losses, or about dependents, or about legal and reported winnings.
Death is public information therefore.... Penis size should be made public!!
Death is public information therefore.... DNA samples should be public!
Death is public information therefore.... Your address and phone numbers should be public!
Death is public information therefore.... anything goes here.
Scorecard
I always heard that businessmen didn't do it for the money, but that money was just a way of keeping score.
So here's a scorecard. How can they be upset about that?
Sigh. Instantly people
Sigh. Instantly people point out all the potential problems. You forgot one more problem- income tax is only part of the tax story - there are property tax, social security and medicare, state tax, sales tax, and possibly a city tax. Did I forget anything?
Even though a simple statement of income tax paid doesn't tell the entire story, it is still pretty informative.
I say it is time to use the GOP's own tactics against them - if you have nothing to hide then why keep this stuff secret?
I hear over and over from some people that they are being taxed to death. I would think that they would be happy to prove their point.
Tripp
It's informative and it's
It's informative and it's also no one's business.
Thank the dieties and the founders for creating a nation that honors and respects civil liberties and private information, both from the gov't and from our neighbors.
Shame on you Tripp.
It would be interesting to
It would be interesting to see how many politicians claiming to be "middle class" are really in the top 1%. I have no interest in seeing celebrities' or joe public's income but do think we should have better income disclosure requirements for state and local politicians.
who cares?
I live in Norway and no one cares: the media crank out a few stories that are cut and paste from the year before, some expats are confused or appalled, a few jokes are made at work. yawn.
It is a good thing because it makes information about income and tax disparity easily available to the public but it doesn't change the world.
If you know someone in Norway you can find out their gross income and taxes here: http://tjenester.skatteetaten.no/. You need their first name (Førnavn) and last name (Etternavn) and the kommune where they live.
A story in English is here: http://www.newsinenglish.no/News/taxlists2.html
It's information about the
It's information about the public's business. The default position should ALWAYS be that it's public information. I'm enough of an absolutist to say that in principal this means that the government shouldn't be collecting information that can't be made public. In practice I'd say withholding stuff like an SSN is OK, as long as the burden is on the government, not the citizen or reporter, and it's not used as an excuse to delay or deny release. For most types of information that's actually how the law is already written in most places, but I'm yet to see a FOIA/sunshine law that has the teeth it deserves.
Oh and @merely --
your penis size is not a matter of the public's business (or, one hopes, its curiosity). Whether you cheat on your taxes and the relative level of inequality in society are the public's business.
Your address already is public record if you own a home, are registered to vote, or, in many states, if you have a drivers license. Or a barbers license.
Your phone number is probably not public record. But corporate America's been spying on you for years, and they're happy to give me a peak at what they've got on you for a $2.50 or so. Less if I'm a regular customer.
As for your DNA, don't worry. Us reporters in duh media can't get it. Just any cop with a grudge or any DA looking to up his clearance rate. Makes me feel safe.
As a general rule, it's real easy to get all the information you need to totally violate an individual's privacy, steal their ID, whatever. But there are usually lots of barriers to the information you need to keep an eye on government.
"Whether you cheat on your
"Whether you cheat on your taxes and the relative level of inequality in society are the public's business. "
The public's interest in that is expressed through legally regulated authorities: the IRS, the FBI, various other police agencies, all of which have to adhere to the Bill of Rights and the laws.
Any member of the public is not authorized to seek on their own these records, or violate privacy by personal crime investigations, if they are acting "on the public's behalf" as agent of the gov't they have to be bound by laws and regulalations.
Since you're apparently a dumbass journalist, I can understand how basic information about how our society works and our civil rights passed you by. Nice parties in j school though, right?
I'll let your "mom" explain to you why "they do it to" is not actually a valid argument.
You are the one with the
You are the one with the distorted view of things. Not only am I allowed, as a member of the public, to seek the amount of property taxes paid by my neighbors, and I am allowed to seek a list of those who are delinquent in paying those taxes, the county actually publishes a list of the delinquent payers as a matter of public record in the local paper. My local paper also publishes the names of people convicted of crimes, and the names of people who have declared bankruptcy. These items are also public record.
I know of no reason why the amount of income tax paid could not also be made public. Bluster all you want but you have made no good case for why this should be a privacy issue, even if there were such a thing as privacy as a basic civil right in the US.
Above I made my case for why this information is important so we citizens can set a good tax policy.
Tripp
"Dumbass" and "Journalist"
"Dumbass" and "Journalist" are redundant, dude.
And the point of having reporters is to make sure you, as the owner, can keep an eye on the IRS, FBI, etc. who are supposed to be taking care of things like tax administration on your behalf. Citizens have to have access to this information because democracies die behind closed doors. I have to have access to it as your proxy because you've got a life.
I'm not saying that's how it works all, or even most of the time. But doing that is what keeps me going to work everyday. On our best days we're out there making sure no one's been screwing you while you weren't looking. Even on our worst we'll at least bring you the weather forecast. So cut us a little slack.
Taxes
Norway does in fact have a wealth tax, and has for as long back as I can remember, but I think it's only a point or two.
"Skattelisten" has also been public for as long as I can remember. It's not considered all that controversial (although it should be IMHO). The only thing that's new is the extent that everything is searchable online for everyone. The poster above that says that this was available to media only in the past is wrong. It was available to anyone, but you had to go to a govt office to read how your neighbors were doing (so very few people actually looked up skatteliste information personally - of course, journalists did, and wrote about what they found to the extent they found it newsworthy).
How 'bout we just publicize
How 'bout we just publicize charitable giving, and only for people with incomes, or total wealth, above a certain level. See whether these Thousand Points of Lighters are walking the walk.