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Clinton and Obama: We (Heart) Gays, Especially in Pennsylvania
Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama want you to know they're not just tolerant, they really like gay people. And they want their votes, especially in Pennsylvania later this month.
In her effort to court the gay vote, Clinton gave an exclusive interview to the Philadelphia Gay News during which she talked about "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," among other issues. The publisher of the paper says both Clinton's and Obama's campaigns have made noises about buying ad space, "but we haven't gotten an insertion order."
Though Barack Obama hasn't done a Pennsylvania-specific appeal to gay voters yet, he has in other parts of the country. According to Editor&Publisher, in March Obama bought full-page, full-color ads in four Ohio and Texas LGBT publications shortly before their state primaries. It was the first time (sez Obama's campaign rep) that any presidential candidate has placed ads in local gay/lesbian publications for the express purpose of "asking for the support and the vote of LGBT voters statewide."
John McCain was asked to do an interview by the Philadelphia Gay News, but declined, as did Obama. "It's a sad day when we are treated with more respect from the Republican candidate, John McCain, than a Democratic senator," said publisher Mark Segal. "With McCain, his top press representative called us back within three hours. It took seven weeks for Obama's representative to acknowledge."
And if you think there aren't enough gays in Pennsylvania to make a difference, think again. The publication says that a full 90% of its readers are registered to vote, and that the "gay vote" makes up to 3 percent of the Pennsylvania electorate, definitely enough to sway the state one way or another.
Ironically Obama (who like Clinton says gay marriage decisions should be left up to the states) said in a speech that marriage should be between a man and a woman. He went on to say that gay rights are often used as an attention-seeking ploy around elections. McCain similarly says that while he's in favor of gay people having some rights, they shouldn't be able to legally marry. Clinton stopped short of saying the same in her interview with the gay paper, but noted that if elected president, she will walk in gay pride parades "to the extent that security would permit."
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We must not forget our dear Karl Marx who condemned the sexual freedom advocated by Fourier and Saint-Simon as a relapse into a "bestial" state of "universal prostitution". Engels condemned homosexuality among men of ancient Greece in two separate passages of The Origin of the Family, Private Property, and the State, describing it as "morally deteriorated", "abominable", "loathsome" and "degrading". Marx apparently shared Engels' views, writing that "the relation of man to woman is the most natural relation of human being to human being" and describing the author of a text promoting sexual freedoms as "that queer prick" ("Schwanzschwulen"). According to the socialist writers Hekma, Oosterhuis and Steakley, Marx and Engels saw any form of sexuality outside of a monogamous heterosexual marriage as a kind of degeneracy fostered by capitalism, which could be cured by socialism. According to Engels, "natural moral principles" would flourish in the socialist future, when (heterosexual) "monogamy, instead of declining, finally becomes a reality ? for the man as well, and homosexuality would simply disappear.
August Bebel's Woman under Socialism (1879), the "single work dealing with sexuality most widely read by rank-and-file members of the SPD," was even more explicit in warning socialists of the dangers of same-sex love. Bebel attributed "this crime against nature" in both men and women to sexual indulgence and excess, describing it as an upper-class, metropolitan and foreign vice.
We must not forget our dear Karl Marx who condemned the sexual freedom advocated by Fourier and Saint-Simon as a relapse into a "bestial" state of "universal prostitution". Engels condemned homosexuality among men of ancient Greece in two separate passages of The Origin of the Family, Private Property, and the State, describing it as "morally deteriorated", "abominable", "loathsome" and "degrading". Marx apparently shared Engels' views, writing that "the relation of man to woman is the most natural relation of human being to human being" and describing the author of a text promoting sexual freedoms as "that queer prick" ("Schwanzschwulen"). According to the socialist writers Hekma, Oosterhuis and Steakley, Marx and Engels saw any form of sexuality outside of a monogamous heterosexual marriage as a kind of degeneracy fostered by capitalism, which could be cured by socialism. According to Engels, "natural moral principles" would flourish in the socialist future, when (heterosexual) "monogamy, instead of declining, finally becomes a reality ? for the man as well, and homosexuality would simply disappear.
August Bebel's Woman under Socialism (1879), the "single work dealing with sexuality most widely read by rank-and-file members of the SPD," was even more explicit in warning socialists of the dangers of same-sex love. Bebel attributed "this crime against nature" in both men and women to sexual indulgence and excess, describing it as an upper-class, metropolitan and foreign vice.
I think that to the extent that gays don't reproduce (unless they are consciously seeking to do so) that they constitute a very important part of society in an age gone beyond overpopulation. When you look at the number of unwanted pregnancies and ill-cared for children that heterosexual relations sometimes engender, there is much to be said for the gay life style. Living in France, I'm used to the presence of the Mayor of Paris who is openly gay and who, some think, may well be the next president of France.
I think it's important for all three candidates to recognize the positive role that gays play in society above and beyond the immediate votes that they might receive from the gay community.
Hey People,
Just what we need, a cheese eating surrendur monkey from france telling the USA how to deal with the gay issue. This is wrong on SO many levels, i don't know what more to say..
Bill
OBAMA barnstormed with Donnie McClurkin, gospel star, pastor to the black elite and crusading homophobe. Barack Obama ripped a page straight from the Bush campaign playbook with his three date barnstorm tour through South Carolina with notorious gay basher, gospel singer Donnie McClurkin. The Grammy winning black gospel singer's last effort on the political scene was his song and shill for Bush's reelection at the Republican National Convention in 2004. Obama has hitched his string to McClurkin's high flying gay bash kite in part out of religious belief (he purports to be somewhat of an evangelical.) Perhaps like this minister who also practices restorative, religious 'therapy' to cure gays who said in defense of McClurkin: "Telling any child that he or she is born gay and cannot change is a death sentence. Gay activists and their blind allies in the mental health, medical and educational professions have blood on their hands for condemning young people to a life mined with such suffering and disease."
Lars is not voting for Obama.
Perhaps Mr. Nigh can
simply refrain from saying
anything!
Bill is just a dirty little troll.
Actually, Obama pointedly denounced McClurkin's views on homosexuality, and is strongly supported by many in the LGBT community. He supports civil unions between same-sex partners, and equality of benefits for such partners; he supports the Employment Non-Discrimination Act; he favors repeal of Don't Ask Don't Tell, and supports the right of gay and lesbian people to serve openly and without discrimination in the military; and unlike Hillary Clinton, he supports the total repeal of the notorious, so-called Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA), which is a law that singles out gay and lesbian people for affirmative discrimination. Clinton supported DOMA until late 2007, when she switched to oppose one portion, and only one portion, of the law, dealing with federal benefits. She continues to support the portion of DOMA that says that states need not recognize same-sex marriages validly performed in other states. Obama favors repeal of the entire discriminatory law.
Hey People,
NO, not a dirty troll, just an average american who can't beleive that you left wing nuts would attack EVERY aspect of America and try and tear down our country, without anyone speaking up...!! For far to long, you were able to hide in the shadows and spout your lies, but not anymore. We will not be silenced, we will stand aginst your assault on our freedoms, and your attempts to decay our culture from the inside. We will not just sit by and watch you destroy and defame our country without a fight.
It is a wonderful thing that free speech works both ways...HUH?
Bill
TKD....thank you so much for
the update regarding Obama.
I appreciate your comments.
I'm a lesbian and a thirty-year-Democrat who has voted for every Democratic presidential candidate since I could vote. But I'll never vote for Obama. The Donnie McClurkin episode, plus his refusal to give an interview to the Philadelphia gay press shows me what a homophobe he is. Not only that, but I am disgusted that he never denounces the misogyny in this campaign: the MSNBC creeps like Matthews and Olbermann, and now Randi Rhodes with her "Hillary is an F-ing whore" garbage. No, he never denounces it, he just benefits from it.
He may have "publicly denounced McClurkin's views" although I never saw it, but he still campaigned with him and ignored our protests for months. Obama does not GET it on gay issues. And he REALLY does not get it on women's issues.
I have far more trust in Hillary Clinton. Plus, Obama is unelectable. Twenty years hanging out with Rev. Wright isn't going to fly in the general election.
Obama is the candidate of the wealthy gay male elite. Clinton is the candidate for the rest of us.
Bill Nigh thinks what my partner and I share as a gay couple somehow has an effect on how he lives his personal life. I suppose because he can't get gay sex out of his mind. It's eating the man alive. While I think that all sex between respectful and consenting adults has a kind of beauty - the intimacy, the slide of skin, the desire and satisfaction met - I really don't stop to think about straight sex. It just doesn't occupy my thoughts because if I think of sex it is in the context of my own inclinations. If I do think of straight sex abstractly, it is respectfully and without derision. Again, I can see this universal beauty in people giving pleasure to one another. But Bill just can't stop thinking about gays and their sex lives, despite his insistance that it is vile to him. It's just amazing.
Bill, gay people have been along side of straight people from the beginning: tending farms and classrooms alike; building cities; putting out fires; felling forests and growing orchards; milling grain and textile; helping each other to higher ground in the floods of spring, waiting out storm and siege and waiting in lines for the laughter of theater or the necessity of food. We are people. We've always lived side by side. What your kind objects to is our growing honesty, our rejection of shame, our fledgling freedom. And we will not surrender our innate right to human dignity. No one makes you explain yourself as a straight man or tries to crowd you out of the picture. And I won't let you do that to me or anyone else - nor will countless others. I fully expect your hateful, self-righteous diatribe. You aren't capable of being touched by any man's honesty. I think you're damaged too much for that. However, for every word you waste on hate, I will space one for respect, tit for tat, tirelessly.
YOU MIGHT BE AN IDIOT:-)
If you think Barack Obama with little or no experience would be better than Hillary Clinton with 35 years experience.
You Might Be An Idiot!
If you think that Obama with no experience can fix an economy on the verge of collapse better than Hillary Clinton. Whose ;-) husband (Bill Clinton) led the greatest economic expansion, and prosperity in American history.
You Might Be An Idiot!
If you think that Obama with no experience fighting for universal health care can get it for you better than Hillary Clinton. Who anticipated this current health care crisis back in 1993, and fought a pitched battle against overwhelming odds to get universal health care for all the American people.
You Might Be An Idiot!
If you think that Obama with no experience can manage, and get us out of two wars better than Hillary Clinton. Whose ;-) husband (Bill Clinton) went to war only when he was convinced that he absolutely had to. Then completed the mission in record time against a nuclear power. AND DID NOT LOSE THE LIFE OF A SINGLE AMERICAN SOLDIER. NOT ONE!
You Might Be An Idiot!
If you think that Obama with no experience saving the environment is better than Hillary Clinton. Whose ;-) husband (Bill Clinton) left office with the greatest amount of environmental cleanup, and protections in American history.
You Might Be An Idiot!
If you think that Obama with little or no education experience is better than Hillary Clinton. Whose ;-) husband (Bill Clinton) made higher education affordable for every American. And created higher job demand and starting salary's than they had ever been before or since.
You Might Be An Idiot!
If you think that Obama with no experience will be better than Hillary Clinton who spent 8 years at the right hand of President Bill Clinton. Who is already on record as one of the greatest Presidents in American history.
You Might Be An Idiot!
If you think that you can change the way Washington works with pretty speeches from Obama, rather than with the experience, and political expertise of two master politicians ON YOUR SIDE like Hillary and Bill Clinton..
You Might Be An Idiot!
If you think all those Republicans voting for Obama in the Democratic primaries, and caucuses are doing so because they think he is a stronger Democratic candidate than Hillary Clinton. :-)
Best regards
jacksmith...
DON'T BE DUPED !!!
Large numbers of Republicans have been voting for Barack Obama in the DEMOCRATIC primaries, and caucuses from early on. Because they feel he would be a weaker opponent against John McCain. And because they feel that a Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama ticket would be unbeatable. And also because with a Clinton and Obama ticket you are almost 100% certain to get quality, affordable universal health care very soon.
But first, all of you have to make certain that Hillary Clinton takes the democratic nomination and then the Whitehouse. NOW! is the time. THIS! is the moment you have all been working, and waiting for. You can do this America. "Carpe diem" (harvest the day).
I think Hillary Clinton see's a beautiful world of plenty for all. She is a woman, and a mother. And it's time America. Do this for your-selves, and your children's future. You will have to work together on this and be aggressive, relentless, and creative. Americans face an even worse catastrophe ahead than the one you are living through now.
You see, the medical and insurance industry mostly support the republicans with the money they ripped off from you. And they don't want you to have quality, affordable universal health care. They want to be able to continue to rip you off, and kill you and your children by continuing to deny you life saving medical care that you have already paid for. So they can continue to make more immoral profits for them-selves.
Hillary Clinton has actually won by much larger margins than the vote totals showed. And lost by much smaller vote margins than the vote totals showed. Her delegate count is actually much higher than it shows. And higher than Obama's. She also leads in the electoral college numbers that you must win to become President in the November national election. HILLARY CLINTON IS ALREADY THE TRUE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE!
As much as 30% of Obama's primary, and caucus votes are Republicans trying to choose the weakest democratic candidate for McCain to run against. These Republicans have been gaming the caucuses where it is easier to vote cheat. This is why Obama has not been able to win the BIG! states primaries. Even with Republican vote cheating help.
Hillary Clinton has been OUT MANNED! OUT GUNNED! and OUT SPENT! 4 and 5 to 1. Yet Obama has only been able to manage a very tenuous, and questionable tie with Hillary Clinton.
If Obama is the democratic nominee for the national election in November he will be slaughtered. Because the Republican vote cheating help will suddenly evaporate. All of this vote fraud and republican manipulation has made Obama falsely look like a much stronger candidate than he really is. YOUNG PEOPLE. DON'T BE DUPED! Think about it. You have the most to lose.
The democratic party needs to fix this outrage. I suggest a Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama ticket. Everyone needs to throw all your support to Hillary Clinton NOW! So you can end this outrage against YOU the voter, and against democracy.
I think Barack Obama has a once in a life time chance to make the ultimate historic gesture for unity, and change in America by accepting Hillary Clinton's offer as running mate. Such an act now would for ever seal Barack Obama's place at the top of the list of Americas all time great leaders, and unifiers for all of history.
The democratic party, and the super-delegates have a decision to make. Are the democrats, and the democratic party going to choose the DEMOCRATIC party nominee to fight for the American people. Or are the republicans going to choose the DEMOCRATIC party nominee through vote fraud, and gaming the DEMOCRATIC party primaries, and caucuses.
Fortunately the Clinton's have been able to hold on against this fraudulent outrage with those repeated dramatic comebacks of Hillary Clinton's. Only the Clinton's are that resourceful, and strong. Hillary Clinton is your NOMINEE. They are the best I have ever seen.
"This is not a game" (Hillary Clinton)
Sincerely
jacksmith...
Hey jacksmith, you might be an idiot...
If you think its acceptable to lie to the faces of the American people about your track record on NAFTA, and claim to support working Americans while having a union buster manage your campaign.
Or if you believe consumer protection can come from the Hillary who supported the banks over the people with bankruptcy bills designed by banks and against consumers.
Or if you believe that the man who proclaimed 'its the economy stupid' did anything but ride the tech wave of the '90s while laying the ground work for the current economic crisis by repealing Glass Stegal, which was designed in the 1930s to protect Americans from fiscal shams by banks like the ones that caused the housing crisis.
Or if you want to elect a fool that lacked the common sense to vote against an obvious ploy by Bush to get us into an unnecessary war, and in fact lobbed on behalf the war along with her idiot husband which led to the deaths of 4000+ soldiers.
Or if you think having fewer years in elected office equates to more experience.
Or if you think that currently losing the popular vote by hundreds of thousands and having a virtually insurmountable delegate lead constitutes a tie.
Or if you think think that some one who is losing belongs on the top of a ballot.
(PS bill is a troll)
Yes Bill you are a troll, you represent arcane values that the American people are rapidly moving beyond. You in fact do not represent any thing but ignorance and bigotry, and while you so rightly proclaim your freedom of speech those representing values much like your own are undermining the very core of the democracy that belongs to every American from the white house. Its loud mouth ignorant views like your own that have oppressed the freedom of speech of the majority in this country, with snide remarks (get a life, get a man honey, hahaha, etc.) and over whelming belligerence that has degraded the national discourse and attempted to silence true freedom of speech. Its the right, if not the duty, of every American to voice their opinion in our democracy preferably in a respectful manner, and while I admit to the occasional rant you truly degrade the tone of the discourse everywhere you post. (you troll)
Hillary is musch stronger on gay rights than Obama. He believes marriage is between a man and a woman; she says that right now, it's unachievable.
In all of his years of elected office, he has never marched in a gay pride parade. She is the first First Lady ever to have marched in a gay pride parade.
Do not trust the liar! TKD is correct and I'll vote Obama.
Hey People,
What do you mean by "vote cheat"..? Are you talking about the democrat leaders decideing to let other parties vote in the primary..? Why do you think that the republican primary is limited to Republicans..? You democrat voters have set yourself up for this manipulation. It is all very legal and oh so much fun..:-) I can't tell you how many people i know in other states who are doing JUST what you are talking about. Especially after hussein obama was found to be sitting in the black kkk church with his kids for so long. It kind of made alot or good voters decide to have obama as the democrat candidate...who would have ever thought that the republicnas would be picking the dem's candidate..?
Do you ahve any idea what the black people in this country are going to do when billary arranges to "Steal" the nomination at the convention in Aug..? If you live in an urban center, you had better make sure you are not home when billary does the dirty deed and steals your nomination.. If you think obama supporters will stand by and be disenfranchised by the "Man", you better start talking to your black friends. I have and they keep mentioning something called burn, baby burn... Do any of you younger billary supporters know what that means...?
Bill
michael z, Bill is in the mainstream. In the many states that had the initiative on gay marriage around 66% voted against it. Now may be the morans that didn't vote were all in favor of gay marriage, but for the ones that did vote, gayness was resoundingly defeated.
Actually, Jody, in most states where this emotionally charged and manipulative kind of initiative was presented, the votes were more split like 49-51, meaning that a teensy-weensy majority are homophobes. The next generation will see those numbers radically change in favor of gay people like myself. Meanwhile, you and Bill and the current 51% just hang on for the ride. Oh, by the way, guess who you share your world view with? People like Adolph Hitler... Cool, right?
Paul,
You are wrong..!!! even in california, the land of fruits and nuts, we defeated ti by OVER 60%.. STOP LIEING...!!! No matter what you think, you have like 20% who are with you, and 20% who feel SORRY for you...Do not for a second think that the majority of citizens agree with your deviant ways..OK..?
Just because you have gotten your gay clubs into our public high shools, just remember, there are schools who have disbanded ALL clubs, rather than accept your gay ways..!!!
Bill
Bill, I stand corrected. My county in Virginia is extremely conservative and here the split was 49-51 so I made an assumption. However, your days are still numbered. Take a look at the poll on this link to see how public views on homosexuality are changing:
http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=273
By the way, why do you insist on validating your view by saying that the majority see it your way? Do you feel your view is less valid if not as many people back you on it? I for one don't have trouble standing up for what I believe in whether it's popular or not. Freeing slaves plunged this country into war because half the nation didn't want to grow - now a very marginal few would say slavery is right. Your kind will stand out as social barbarians in another thirty years.
Straight White Obama supporting Guy here,
God bless mmy Gay/Lesbian/Transgendered brothers and sisters on this board. I respect your assertions of dignity and endorse/support your efforts for equality. That said, I'm convinced that your path to equality is through the public hypocracy of "seperate, but equal" domestic partnerships all but indistinguishable in federal and state law from "marriage." Once legal rights are acknoweldged, they can't be rescinded, and, ultimately, such seperate structures won't stand.
I never said that bill was outside the mainstream on gay marriage, and in fact I don't pay much attention to that issue as it is of little concern to me and I figure it will probably resolve its self in ten years or so. The fact is the people of my generation (20+ years younger than bill) aren't threatened by the issue, heck I know a guy a little younger than me whose dad was convicted of a gay hate crime and he seems to think gay marriage is fine. The fact is that bill is very backwards on a variety of issues that the rest of America is realizing are important, such as global warming. I for one am convinced that the abysmal job done by the Bush administration has helped set the stage for a long term progressive majority in this country. It seems that neocon rule along with demographic changes that MoJo mentioned a while back will lead to a long term series of crushing defeats for the belligerent fools in the republican party that represent bills positions, meaning he is falling into the minority. Perhaps he is not falling into the minority rapidly, but is instead doing it slowly but surely, but either way its happening.
Paul, you are a troll. You should post some place else. Everybody knows that Hitler was a homosexual along with many in the third Reich. Hitler was also a vegetarian.
In my state of Louisiana, the gays were defeated by 7 to 3. And we tolerate diversity in sin city(which God sent the flood, and people didn't listen to Noah, and they partied on, and got what they deserved), but when it comes to marriage, no way.
We must not forget our dear Karl Marx who condemned the sexual freedom advocated by Fourier and Saint-Simon as a relapse into a "bestial" state of "universal prostitution". Engels condemned homosexuality among men of ancient Greece in two separate passages of The Origin of the Family, Private Property, and the State, describing it as "morally deteriorated", "abominable", "loathsome" and "degrading". Marx apparently shared Engels' views, writing that "the relation of man to woman is the most natural relation of human being to human being" and describing the author of a text promoting sexual freedoms as "that queer prick" ("Schwanzschwulen"). According to the socialist writers Hekma, Oosterhuis and Steakley, Marx and Engels saw any form of sexuality outside of a monogamous heterosexual marriage as a kind of degeneracy fostered by capitalism, which could be cured by socialism. According to Engels, "natural moral principles" would flourish in the socialist future, when (heterosexual) "monogamy, instead of declining, finally becomes a reality for the man as well, and homosexuality would simply disappear.
August Bebel's Woman under Socialism (1879), the "single work dealing with sexuality most widely read by rank-and-file members of the SPD," was even more explicit in warning socialists of the dangers of same-sex love. Bebel attributed "this crime against nature" in both men and women to sexual indulgence and excess, describing it as an upper-class, metropolitan and foreign vice.
Although I believe the gay marriage issue should be addressed, it's not important to most of the country, and I agree that gay marriage and abortions, two issues usually used as wedges in the right/left culture wars, act solely to divide people. I don't care if adam wants to marry johnny. Creating jobs, eliminating poverty, health insurance, iraq, those WEIGH FAR MORE than gay marriage.
Although I believe the gay marriage issue should be addressed, it's not important to most of the country, and I agree that gay marriage and abortions, two issues usually used as wedges in the right/left culture wars, act solely to divide people. I don't care if adam wants to marry johnny.
Creating jobs, eliminating poverty, health insurance, iraq, those WEIGH FAR MORE on the scale of importance, than gay marriage. period.
Although I believe the gay marriage issue should be addressed, it's not important to most of the country, and I agree that gay marriage and abortions, two issues usually used as wedges in the right/left culture wars, act solely to divide people. I don't care if adam wants to marry johnny.
Creating jobs, eliminating poverty, health insurance, iraq, those WEIGH FAR MORE on the scale of importance than gay marriage. sorry.
Although I believe the gay marriage issue should be addressed, it's not important to most of the country, and I agree that gay marriage and abortions, two issues usually used as wedges in the right/left culture wars, act solely to divide people. I don't care if adam wants to marry johnny.
Creating jobs, eliminating poverty, health insurance, iraq, those WEIGH FAR MORE on the scale of daily importance than gay marriage. sorry.
For those haters who say Obama doesn't come correct on gay issues, here's something to chew on:
http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid50021.asp
Jazzence, I hear you. I was responding to Bill and Jody, who have been hate spewing. But by and large, economy, ecology, health care and civil liberties for all groups are obviously of a greater importance to any thinking person. Johnny being able to marry Frank is nice, but not if they can't find a job because of the economy or if food is scarce because of the environmental conditions.
Jody, who is the troll here? Why is someone who is so backward that they aren't even familiar with the Bible [God promised never to use flooding as a measure again] trying to take a righteous religious position on homosexuality and Katrina? Why is someone who is so cemented in a hateful and conservative view hanging out with the faggoty, vegetarian, tree-hugging, progressive crowd over at MoJo? That's what real trolling is, kid.
To be honest, the LGBT community is loose and broken. Those who hold the closest of similarities - lesbians and gays - also have very little interaction as would not surprise most men and women. Bisexual individuals often opt eventually to marry heterosexually and find greater acceptance in the public at large, and transgender issues are almost beyond the scope of the concept of innate sexuality. After all, a boy that wants to be a girl in order to be with boys sounds like a case of firm resistance to innate homosexuality than an issue of gender (has become susceptible to society's gender role expectations rather than accepting one's own identity and sexuality). Furthermore, LG people also have concerns - do we even want marriage? why is everyone talking about marriage when we don't even have housing and employment protections?! For many of us, it is more important to have non-discrimination legislation than marriage, because many including myself find that civil unions are much like marriage without a religious aspect. I do not think a religion should be forced to recognize a homosexual union, but can if it wants. So how about we just wipe the whole system clean and give marriage certificates to people joined by a religious leader and civil certificates to anyone joined by a public servant/official? The government has gotten too deeply involved in marriage and personal unions and therein lies the greatest problem. Still, how does a politican court such a diverse community? It's like bundling heterosexuals together and ignoring differences in culture, age, economic class, etc. For Clinton, though, I see a great hurdle - her once unfaithful husband passed DOMA in order to escape his own infidelity and reaffirm a general commitment to his own marriage. Personally, that hypocrisy by Mr. Clinton leaves a sour taste in the mouth enough to spit (and I do not like spitting). As for the other candidates, well they are all too corporate-led to appeal to me much. I suppose I'll end up voting Nader/Gonzalez because we need an equally strong counterweight to this system to bring it back into balance.
Good points, Mark, but a vote for Nadar is just a vote for McCain. It's a fact. You might as well just go vote for McCain directly; the result will be the same.
A few thought for Mark and Paul, 1) voting directly for McCain is most defiantly not the same as a vote for a third party candidate. If you vote Nader you are definitely throwing your vote away, but an actual vote for McCain is a vote for things no progressive in their right mind really wants. 2) I agree with Mark about the right of churches to refuse or allow the granting of marriages, but I think that there is a more fundamental issue that undercuts the rhetoric of the right. Conservatives always talk about the 'sacred bond between a man and a woman', but of course it would be against the constitution for the government to make anything sacred. Only a church can sanctify, therefor by the conservative definition of marriage the government merely grants extra rights and no government can grant anything that is an actual marriage. On another note certain things can constitute too much information Mark, and that would leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth.
Vote for Nader. IF you vote for the major parties, you are throwing your vote away. Americans need to take back the country from the CFR that controls both paries.
It's not that I don't agree that both parties are corrupt, but voting for Nader or any other independent right now spells out disaster. It only hands the election over to what is still, at the end of the day, the far, far, far worse of two evils. That thinking has already damaged America too much. Get the 'lesser' in, slow the death march that the republicans have set this country on, and then begin to build a ground swell, progressive movement that will help independents. A twelve percent group of Nader enthusiasts only acts as a fly in the ointment. When you can get your public behind you better, showing much higher numbers in polls [any polls] then you can feel confident enough to step into the ring and swing things around. But now, as I've said before, you might as well just march us all into the RNC and concede the election. The reality is that if everyone that wants to vote Nader got organized and went to the DNC making progressive demands, making a very convincing argument that their votes can make or break the Democratic victory, they would be able to shape the platform of the DNC. But divided we fall.
Paul, the DNC understands losing an election because they do not adopt Ralph Nader's position of the issues. It is a blunt but effective tool. The Democrats will lose this election if they do not come around and support the will of the people. You have to tear down to build up. The Democrats got punished the last 8 years and it appears, that like a Donkey, they have not learned their lesson yet.
No, Pete, the Dems aren't punished - the people are the ones who lose here. And no matter how you might gloat, thinking your indie vote is really tellin' em off, you just make the people whom the Bushites hold in contempt the victims - everyone outside of their elite power circle. Hate to seem like I'm overstating things, but you've got blood on your hands, Pete. Hope your self-righteousness comes with a stain remover.
Did anyone saw Hillary's comments on Ellen Degeneris Show? She fully support Gay and Lesbian marriage.
Wake up America, we are all sharing the planet and we all benefit from peaceful communion.
Paul, you are delusional. Probably comes from trolling too much.
Mark - I disagree with you on your stance regarding a boy wanting to become a girl so 'he' can be with a boy, being a case of unacknowledged homosexuality. Transgender issues are totally separate and apart from homosexuality (as has been explained in great detail by my daughter). I understand the confusion that could arise because it is a really complex state of being but I doubt that there are many people who would go to the trouble and pain, both physical and emotional, of doing what needs to be done to become the other gender in order to disavow their being gay. Kind of overkill, don't you think?
I'm queer and I support Obama 100%. there were a few moments when I questioned his decisions, but I think he's the right person for the job.
gayness was defeated? who's the morOn (educate yourself on issues and spelling). gayness was defeated-you make no sense honey.
There are no "gays" or "straights" - just humans.
Homophobia is a personal fear of ones own sexuality. Internal confusion expressed externally as hate.
Flash! This is the 21st century.
Leave your hang-ups behind. I'm a tax paying democratic voter. What I do or don't do with my life is nobody's business. Now, for my taxation I do demand MY rights, ALL of my rights, not just some of them. Nice of all three politicians to converge in their condescensions.
Marx, Engels? Just what are you talking about Steinberg?
If Bill is stuck in the past millenium, you're definitely stuck in the 19th century. If you're just an orthodox communist, you may look into China, they're totalitarianly accepting new members.
You know what I happen to like gay people its their lifes to do as they wish they are not bothering anyone, as for hil and her comments on the gay votes she used a "derogatory"statement by useing the words "fairytale" when she knew it was Obama really wanting liberation for the gay rights, I hope Obama gets all their votes and can see the issue here.
RJG in VV great post one step at a time excellent thinking !