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Rick Warren??
This one puzzles.
Rick Warren is the pastor of the California-based megachurch known as Saddleback and the author of super-bestseller The Purpose Driven Life. He wins plaudits from mainstream media types and Very Serious People because he is trying to expand the evangelical community's priorities beyond the standard social issues. He wants to see more attention paid to poverty, climate change, AIDS, and human rights. That's all well and good, but Warren still has many views that match the hardline right. He strongly supported Proposition 8. He considers stem cells "non-negotiable." He compares abortion to the Holocaust. He has admitted the difference between between him and James Dobson is primarily "a matter of tone." In a move that would make George Orwell proud, he just gave George W. Bush an "International Medal of P.E.A.C.E."
And this is the guy Barack Obama has chosen to give the invocation at his inauguration? A man whose views stand in stark contrast to the ones held by the tens of millions of Americans who elected Obama?
I'm not the only one who is shocked. There is already a petition at whitehouse2.org that urges the President-elect to give this incredible privilege to one of the nation's thousands and thousands of men and women of the cloth whose views match Obama's, and those of the people who will have flown in from around the country to see the inauguration in person. Take a look.
I think it's important to bring the right wing an the left closer together, but does it have to be done with a bigot like Rick Warren. But, then, again, who is there on the Right that has that much national prominence that isn't a bigot? Now this language might be construed as disparaging the man. But, anyone who is in favor of taking away the noncriminal rights of people, on the basis of intolerance?regardless of whether based on religion, race, belief, etc.-- is a bigot. Rick Warren meets that criterion of the basis that he discriminates on the basis of women's rights to abortion and contraception, the non-religious, and gay/lesbians, etc. Although he is said to support peace, AIDS, anti-poverty, climate change, and 'human rights' (whose?), these issues can be taken as tokens when it comes down the doing some other than giving donations and sermons. When Rick Warren really stands for something righteous, I'll sit down.
Dear Nancy,
Regarding your stated belief: Obama won without Zionist support(the Zionists supported Palin, McCain), so he can bring peace to the middle east.
Read 'em & weep:
Obama to AIPAC:
Today I will be speaking from my heart as a true friend of Israel.
I know that when I visit AIPAC, I am among friends, good friends. Friends who share my strong commitment that bond between US and Israel unbreakable today, unbreakable tomorrow, unbreakable forever ....
I will bring to the White House an unshakeable commitment to Israel's security. That starts with ensuring Israel's qualitative military advantage. ...I will ensure Israel can defend itself from any threat, from Gaza to Tehran. ...
As president I will use all elements of American power to pressure Iran. I will do everything in my power to prevent Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon. Everything in my power to prevent Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon. Everything.
www.motherjones.com/mojoblog/archives/2008/06/8560_obama_at_aipac.html
From the beginning, Obama has received more scrutiny on the issue of Israel than any other presidential candidate?something of a paradox given that he shares a uniformly pro-Israel record and policy platform with the major contenders from both parties.
...
Since 2004 when Obama first ran for Senate, he has received $93,700 of pro-Israel PAC money...
... the Obama campaign's loud protestations of support for Israel have been enough to placate the New York Sun's editors, who penned an editorial in early January noting "he has chosen to put himself on the record in terms that Israel's friends in America?can warmly welcome." That piece, Politico reported, was "promptly and widely" circulated by Obama's people.
www.motherjones.com/commentary/columns/2008/01/obamas-israel-shuffle.htm...
"This one puzzles."
Has this become the official motto of the Obama administration?
Doesn't O's actions up to now pretty much signal full continuity with the Bush administration?
At what point do you stop being "surprised" by Obama's latest action and start being critical of them?
I wouldn't go that dang far. When it comes to appointing someone to pray(invocation) at the innaguaration, no matter who he picks it will be damn if he does and damn if he dosen't. So what, as long as oh Ricky boy is not part of the cabinet unlike Bush's preacher cronies.
Congress picked this not Obama.
The key to this is the man that is giving the final benediction. That is Joseph Lowery
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Lowery
Lowery said to GWB's face at Coretta King's funeral "We know now there were no weapons of mass destruction over there. But Coretta knew and we know that there are weapons of misdirection right down here. Millions without health insurance. Poverty abounds. For war billions more but no more for the poor!"
Don't feel to bad, the Supreme Court swore in on a Bible and then proceeded to do away with all Christian references in the schools, courts, and started their infamous Separation of God from Country. The only problem with that is that they have all separated the Country from its guide of right and wrong, justice and morality and we have now become the United States of Sodom and Gommorrah and declining to a second class world power in the process!
The Ultimate Sin
I am the author of a Christian book -popular theology - which is what Rick Warren produces.
http://photosc.msspro.com/pic/theov1.htm
I would say that one can oppose stem cell research and most abortion if it is done rationally and not hysterically.
Stem cell research may be rendered redundant by other new breakthroughs.
Abortion has to be limited but we can't return to the days where women are victimized by butchers.
On abortion Warren shows that he is nuts, comparing it to the Holocaust.
But the ultimate sin is in presenting George W Bush with an international medal of peace.
Warren's hypocrisy reveals him as a false prophet.
You're right Mr. Independent. The Bible must be an amazing guide of right and wrong, considering the fantastic track record of most of its greatest teachers. Heck, we really need to look no further than G-d's own favorite, King David. I say we become the United States of Adultery and Staged War Deaths to Hide Our Infidelities.
You're a joke. We're declining to a second class world power because our leaders are allowed to lie and cheat and steal whatever they want from us as long as they promise to keep us safe from godless heathens. Religion is a crutch for the weak and a shelter for intolerance and hatred. You don't need to believe in God to understand that there is a right and wrong and that the consequences of our actions should be our moral compass, not some arbitrary set of rules that can be freely broken as long as the offender asks forgiveness from his deity.
Rick Warren is a snake oil salesman of the highest caliber and his "church" should be paying taxes like any other business. He surrendered his right to tax exemption as soon as he took a position on Prop 2. We need some heathens in the IRS who won't be scared to call these so-called churches on their bullshit and start demanding their share of the pie.
You and I might not agree with Pastor Warren's views. Many do. But, I recall Mr. Obama promising to be the president of all the people. Doesn't that mean those with whom he may not agree?
Selling out his supporters is something at which Barack Obama is setting new records. His choice of the homophobic, anti-abortion pastor Rick Warren to give the invocation at his presidential inauguration is only the latest in a string of betrayals since election day.
Having already reneged on his promise to poor Americans struggling with energy bills, Obama is now spitting in the face of gays, lesbians and feminists. We expect he will soon denounce Native Americans in favor of the banks and energy companies robbing Indian trust funds blind.
Well, what did you expect from a guy who built his career sucking up to Wall Street?
Godless Heathen
I'm not a religious person BY ANY MEANS but I have to say this: you calling Mr. Independent a joke is being intolerant. There's nothing inherently positive or negative about religion. Its effect on the world manifests in how people use religion.
You should read some of CS Lewis's nonfiction books. He discusses Christianity in a way that removes the conflict between being a rational being and a Christian. It might soften your stance and see religion in a different light. But I doubt that.
One of the most troubling things, on the left and the right, is when large groups of people assume that a politician's only responsibility is to pander to the people who voted for him or her.
We've spent the past eight years trapped in the most divisive political atmosphere of my lifetime. A guy runs a campaign pledging to unite the country. He gets elected and everyone moans that he isn't doing enough for their particular schism of the American population.
Keep in mind, I am an atheist. My views are far away from that of the Rick Warrens of this world. I make no place for religion in my life, but I welcome the chance for someone other than the power in party to have a monopoly on the public debate.
Let's spread the megaphone around and let everyone have their say. Hopefully at the end of the day we come away with a mutual respect of our individual and collective beliefs.
Rick Warren will get the welcome he deserves.
Kris,
It hasn't been just eight hellish years, more like 30 years. Gingrich's Republican Revolution, Grover Norquists plan to destroy the US government, Carl Rove and his predecessor's relentless muck-racking and political assassinations...... Of course, Nixon should be included too. He was no sugar plum fairy.
I'm thinking that if Mr. Obama's tent is so "big" we will certainly see someone such as David Dukes in the vip seating area with Oprah.
I usually don't post comments, but sometimes I can't help myself...
Godless Heathen, I hope you read this. I just want to thank you for your post. It's refreshing to be reminded from time to time, that there are still rational, intelligent people on this planet. I mean, HOLYSHIT!!! I can't help but think bad thoughts whenever I hear some knuckle dragging, cousin humper talking about how morality and (insert your B.S. religion here) are exclusive. Is this really where we are as a society? I mean, really, in this day and age?
Anyway Godless Heathen, keep on truckin!
Obama betrays progressives because he belongs to the State. Socialists and fascists are different only on how they pitch the idea of government. Elections are irrelevant because there cannot be any relationship between a vote in November and the millions of decisions made thereafter.
Progressives had their best representative ever in Obama. They won't find a better person. Progressives cannot explain anymore the failure of absolute government by corrupt individuals. The problem lies in the concept of government itself.
Drop the Federal reserve, drop the military industrial complex, drop Obama.
Obama began his run to the right in June of this year. On issue after issue, he threw progressives off the bus or sometimes even UNDER the bus (e.g., Rev. Wright). He backtracked on anything he ever said that sounded progressive. Ho, he won't talk to terrorists. Yes he can support telecom immunity. Faith-based initiative? Wonderful stuff, let's EXPAND it. Iraq, well, maybe we better listen to the commanders on the ground. Afghanistan, well, we're gonna put MORE troops in there. Health care, well, we'll chat with the insurance companies and get back to you on that.
Now he's surrounded himself with icons of Washington insider politics, of lobbyists, of the 2 party status quo. More corruption on the way, foreign policy of American hegemony will stay the same, support Israel no matter what they do, give 'em a nuclear umbrella. Print money as fast as you can and hand it over to the Wall Street chuckleheads who are running out of pockets to stuff it in.
So putting the Brokeback Mountain pastor on the agenda doesn't puzzle me. It INFURIATES me. It's a nod to the right wing hate mongering bastards who have used wedge issues like gay marriage to drive political discourse into the dirt and push our country to the brink. It's an insult to anyone who believes that the government and religion ought to be separate entities for the good of both institutions. It is a message to all the gay people who thought that Obama was progressive on the issue of gay marriage, and the message is "No way."
The Big Picture problem here is the two party system. I'm not a genius, and I can see that. Why does the progressive media, including this site, systematically ignore minor party movements? Without other choices, we have binary decisions, and in this century, in this environment, you will ALWAYS end up making the less bad choice.
Notice that third party candidates are ENTIRELY MISSING from Obama's team. Why is that? How can a "progressive" put REPUBLICANS on his cabinet but not Nader and Gonzales, two "rival" candidates who were in the national election.
Change? Sure. The change we got is that the center of corruption has moved from Texas to Chicago.
-Wexler
Don't you guys get it? He has to include everyone, or we'll just keep on the way we were. You have to share the table with people you don't like or disagree with or we will never find common ground. For too long people on all sides of these wedge issues have indulged in the luxury of intolerant chest beating, and it has spiraled us into a swamp of fear and intransigence, and accomplished nothing!
So we break a little bread, bite our tongues, and maybe, just maybe, get somewhere!!
You Bet! Bring 'em all to dinner!!
Godless Heathen, I couldn't agree with you more. The pandering to the religious right is just sickening in this country. So far, I'm extremely disappointed with Obama's choices. Change means transcending the status quo not reinforcing it by creating a "dream team". I'll give Obama six months to prove I'm wrong, then third party.
Very disappointing.
A homophobe, anti-choice televangelist to have a prominent role, in the historic inauguration, of a President-Elect -- who promised change we can all believe in.
This isn't change.
And, I believe the Obama administration will continue the politics of Washington, as usual.
My reaction is the same as when McCain chose Palin: "Of all of the choice available, THIS is who you're going with?"
Dear Godless and Co.-Anarchy is when every man does that which is right in his own eyes-Sorry about the Sodom and Gommorrah, we're not quite there yet but we're working on it and here's a thought-The reason for all the social problems we are having is the plain simple truth of the Bible-they received not the word of truth as their ways were evil!
First, I want to apologize to Mr. Independent for calling him a joke. As far as misguided libertarians (is that how you're identifying yourself these days?) go, he usually has productive things to say. I was in a foul mood and personal attacks aren't cool. That said, I still think your post is a joke. As mentioned above, the id ea that being an Atheist or a Humanist makes you incapable of defining morals is just ludicrous. In fact, the opposite is just as easy to argue. I think that if you believe in a higher power, it's easier to treat people badly and the earth horribly, because you believe the earth to be just an "in-between" stage while your soul waits to ascend to heaven. Specific to Christians and all related cults is the belief that Jesus is going to destroy the earth and create a New Jerusalem. By that logic, destroying the earth doesn't matter and belligerently supporting Israel's every move in the hopes of Armageddon is actually a positive thing.
Yes, there are good Christians in the same way that there are evil Atheists, but ask yourself this. When was the last time you were proselytized by an Atheist? Told that you chose to be the way you are and were damned to eternal pain because of it? When was the last time a major war was fought in the name of No God?
Yes, it was intolerant of me to call Mr. Independent a joke, but it didn't deprive him of fundamental rights. It didn't doom him to death by the AIDS virus because I would only help him protect himself if he aligned himself with my morals and views. It didn't inform his political beliefs while hiding behind a "non-profit" tax shelter. That's the difference between my intolerance and that of the type he displayed. We agree on a lot of ideals: responsibility, self-sacrifice, privacy. Unfortunately, I think these should not only be shown by the government, but also by the American people.
Here's how I see it: You want to go to a church every Sunday and spend your time praying to an invisible ghost in the sky? Go for it. The invisible ghost tells you that you need to help the poor and the sick? Go for it. The invisible ghost tells you that there is something wrong with my life and I need to change or suffer its wrath? No Thanks. Keep it to yourself. I don't want to listen to your suggestions so now you want to gain political power and force me to be like you? Go ahead and climb to the top of your steeple so your ghost can hear you better, take a seat, and spin around so you can call out in every direction, just in case he's not where you think he is.
PS - Wexler, I think this is finally the election that is going to prove to me that voting for the lesser of two evils is not a better choice than throwing my vote away on a third-party candidate. (but yes I still believe that as long as this is a country of people who hate learning, we will never have a viable third party)
Obama was just asked about Warren in this mornings press conference. "It is important for America to come together... I was invited to speak at Warren's church... We have to create an atmosphere where we can disagree without being disagreeable... Also Joseph Lowery is speaking."
Obama's real views are in line with Pastor Warren's. Get over folks. Face reality. You can't take God out of the public square in America. God bless America. Get the book,
"The Purpose Driven Life", and it will change your life too.
A whole bunch of posts made by people who have allowed religion (and those who claim to speak in Gods name) divide them.
You folks have been as suckered as those you accuse of being lemmings.
Get over it!
Wait, I'm assuming you're talking to me so I'm going to ask what exactly I should get over.
Should I get over the fact that people are trying to keep condoms out of the hands of my teenage students because "if we teach abstinence, then they won't get any diseases." Ok, that's great. Just like they do their homework and stay off drugs because we tell them to do that too?
Should I get over the fact that churches are allowed non-profit status, but then allowed to violate workplace discrimination laws against homosexuals and non-christians with impunity?
Should I get over the fact that "Divorce rates among conservative Christians were significantly higher than for other faith groups, and much higher than Atheists and Agnostics experience." http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm
yet allowing a couple of the same sex to marry would be the equivalent of "having a brother and sister being together and calling that marriage." http://blog.beliefnet.com/stevenwaldman/2008/12/rick-warrens-controversi...
I will not get over intolerance and injustice being bandied about in the name of religious freedom. Too many good, honest people who would be good, honest people without religion have been dragged into xenophobia, homophobia, and self-righteousness by pious pricks like Rick Warren.
As I have said in previous posts. If you want to believe these things on your own time in your own way, I feel sorry for you, but that's fine. If you want to try to exploit political influence to force your ideas on other people through lies and coercion, that's where I draw a line.
I was raised in a church and in that time, I met more than a few people who were genuine and kind and lived in the way that the Bible instructs. I met a lot more people who would have been rightly compared to the Pharisees. Jesus ate with the prostitutes and thieves. He didn't browbeat them into submission. He let his kindness and compassion fill them with a curiosity about why he was so different than the other teachers of the time.
I, sir, have not been suckered. I know divisiveness and hatred when I see it. I know false accusations of "persecution" while persecuting others when I see it.
I, sir, have not been suckered. I have watched my mom's church ostracize her and blame her when her marriage failed because her husband liked to beat her. I watched my mom pressured into marriage with that same man because they had sex "Oh my god, no! You'll burn in hell forever! Rush into marriage so this man can beat you whenever he feels like it" I watched myself and a room full of 13 year old boys browbeaten into tears because of guilt-ridden lessons about the evils of masturbation. I've watched people preach out of a Bible with claims that a woman's role is to be subservient in a marriage. I have watched honest people racked with guilt because they are unable to lead a lifestyle free from "sinful thoughts."
I will not "Get over it!"
PS - I have a "Purpose Driven Life" my purpose is to try to make my planet and my country a better place for the next generation to live in. I don't need an all-knowing sky ghost to tell me how to do that.
I am glad I am not alone, if this had been an isolated case, amongst a sea of progressive moves by Obama, I would be looking past the choice of Mr. Warren. I have only seen middle of the road pro-business hawks getting into the positions of power in the Obama administration. I have moved out of the pro-Obama camp, and into a more pessimistic stance wanting to the president Obama sold himself as during the election. I got my first whiff of something was not right when Obama came out in support for Joe Lieberman, and Obama had his surrogates (Even Bayh and Amy Klobuchar) running around saying that this was no time for "revenge" and painting those who were angry at Joe, as if we were being petty. What that was about was about accountability, something that has been sorely absent during the last 8 years (actually30 years) and it seems we are headed down that road again. I am off the reservation for now.
If you need some dusty old book to tell YOU right from wrong, well, I think YOU are the problem. My parents taught me, and too bad they did not do the same for you.
You voted for change, you got it! Throughout the entire campaign Obama never stated exactly what he stood for, only hope and change. Well, the only true hope is in Jesus Christ, whom Rick Warren represents, Maybe Obama is finally on the right track.
The one thing I keep reading is, Obama has to keep open...he's the president of everyone and so therefore needs to be all inclusive.
SO...Why isn't David Duke being asked to speak?
Oh that's right only, Gays, Lesbians and transgenders can be ostracized...Blacks, Jews, and whomever else, they can no longer be scapegoats and get kicked in the face. Sorry, I forgot, its a new Republic.
I'm no fan of Mr. Warren (or of any born-again evangelical, for that matter, for whom I believe Christianity is less about faith and morality than it is power and identity politics), but I do respect Barack Obama for living up to his pledge to be the president of all Americans, not just the ones who agree with him.
Our national strength has always been rooted in our diversity and our unity. We work ourselves into a lather--both right and left--over the things that divide us. Let's just try for a moment to work together on the issues that unite us. Pastor Warren has worked to make evangelism more than an anti-abortion, anti-gays movement and has rightly devoted major attention to poverty and AIDS in his ministry. Let's give him credit for that and work with him to achieve what are truly common objectives.
Rick is better than Pastor Wright, or Al Sharpton, even the Reverend Jesse HighJackson.
What Bible thumping Christian you know that believes marriage is between the same sex is right. I personaly don't care who marries whom but i have a right to be against it without you liberal intolerant gays telling me i can't have an opinion. Is this man your pastor? Obama is the president of the United states not just for gays and liberals but also straight and conservative. Get over it and be glad we have change.
silly puppy
Religion never was IN the square in America -except in Public LYnchings and Stonings. America is a nation of Ferengis - they wouldn't know Jesus or Buddha if they materialized among them - they'd round them up like the people in Iowa, jail them and ship them away. Get real. Christians have NO morals, no ethics, no souls, and never have had. They are the opposite of moral people, and you know it.
What people in Iowa got rounded up and how did I escape it?
???????????
Get real. Warren is there because Obama wants him there. It's his Inauguration. The committee merely rubberstamps.
I am shocked and saddened.
I thought Obama have realized mixing religion into politics does nothing good but hurts many of his supporters and hinders progress.
It's a shame and an insult to many.
I'm angry. Ever since the election I've been listening to all the extreme outrage over every little thing Obama has done. I read here, Common Dreams, various blogs and the MSM. I LIKE criticism. It makes me think. From progressives it's usually valid. I get good information.
This is pretty much the final straw for me. It's a two minute prayer. Were Jewish people turning their backs when Billy Graham swore in Bill Clinton? NOBODY cared. It is NOT important. ALL of this hyperbole... this lynchmob mentality... this seminal impeachment movement... is classic divide and conquer strategy from the powers you ALL decry.
You selfish little tools have deprived me of five minutes of joy... FIVE MINUTES. You couldn't just let me smile for FIVE DAMN MINUTES.
I've always supported Gay Rights. I probably still will. But today? Today you can go to the hell I don't believe in.
let the shoes fly
I think it's important to bring the right wing an the left closer together, but does it have to be done with a bigot like Rick Warren. But, then, again, who is there on the Right that has that much national prominence that isn't a bigot? Now this language might be construed as disparaging the man. But, anyone who is in favor of taking away the noncriminal rights of people, on the basis of intoleranceregardless of whether based on religion, race, belief, etc.-- is a bigot. Rick Warren meets that criterion of the basis that he discriminates on the basis of women's rights to abortion and contraception, the non-religious, and gay/lesbians, etc. Although he is said to support peace, AIDS, anti-poverty, climate change, and 'human rights' (whose?), these issues can be taken as tokens when it comes down the doing some other than giving donations and sermons. When Rick Warren really stands for something righteous, I'll sit down.
Rick Warren might be a good pick as it will bring the Evangelical religion out from under their rock into the open where they can be seen as the hypocritical nutballs that they are..
Obama can pick pretty much any preacher for his inauguration for all I care. By definition, a preacher is a crazy person, so be it Rick Warren or any other religious nutball... it's all the same to me. I always turn off the radio/television whoever it is praying anyway. I have no use it.
No use FOR it. Sorry for the typo.
UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - The U.N. General Assembly split over the issue of gay rights on Thursday after a European-drafted statement calling for decriminalization of homosexuality prompted an Arab-backed one opposing it.
Diplomats said a joint statement initiated by France and the Netherlands gathered 66 signatures in the 192-nation assembly after it was read out by Argentina at a plenary session. A rival statement, read out by Syria, gathered some 60.
The two statements remained open for further signatures, the diplomats said. No resolution was drafted on the issue and there was no voting, they added.
The division in the General Assembly reflected conflicting laws in the world at large. According to sponsors of the Franco-Dutch text, homosexuality is illegal in 77 countries, seven of which punish it by death.
Obama will side with the Arabs in the UN.
How about a little perspective here. Think of all the ways the government, media and the Republican party has twisted itself in a pretzel to incorporate evangelical views and values in its practices, policies and positions.
Then consider that most credible sources put evangelicals at 7% of the population. (http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/campaign-2008/2008/09/24/the-evangel...)
A minority.
A teeny tiny minority.
So, just how much kowtowing do these folks require, much less deserve? PARTICULARLY FROM THE DEMOCRATS????
Obama is looking just like captain sell-out Bill Clinton these days.
Rick Warren's comparison of abortion to the halocaust isn't correct? Killing the innocent unborn because they are unwanted,inconvenient isn't a "final solution" just like the killing of innocent unwanted Jews and other groups (as well as those with physical,mental disability-viewed as impure & inferior) who were inconvenient to the Third Reich?