Re: Christian Zionists continue to have clout with White House

So what? This is strictly legal American lobbying. What is your beef? That it is right wing evangelical lobbying? Why? You don't believe? Okay. When Clinton was President the White House was crawling with left wing lobbyist and we had to live with it. This is what makes America America. In other words, you have failed to make a point.

Actually, the article makes its point quite well in that these are very dangerous people that should be watched carefully. Instead of god bringing about the rapture himself, these people are working real hard to make it happen. A general confrontation in the middle east is not in anyone best interest. We must fight to remove these agent of the devil in christian skin from the among us.

The Jewish, Muslim, and Christian fundamentalists are twisting the Torah, Koran and Bible and God honoring Jews Muslims and Christians are suffering because of it. God's name is being dragged in the mud and unbelievers have one more reason not to search for the God of Abraham. Moses, Muhammad and Jesus are weeping. These charlatans will have some explaining when judgment day comes.

Will there be a secret Pre-Tribulation escape to Heaven before the Lord returns?

It’s Not Biblical!

A large segment of today’s Christian leaders have been promoting an unproven theory that basically proclaims that the Church of God, or Born Again Christians, will be secretly snatched up to Heaven, anywhere from three and a half to seven years, before God pours out his wrath on those who failed to respond to his call for repentance from their sinful ways. They believe Christians will escape this so-called time (3 and a half to 7 years) of great tribulation and non-believers will be Left Behind to suffer God's wrath. They call this theory the Rapture, or the Pre-Tribulation escape.

While a throng of educators, researchers and prophecy writers in the Christian community are promoting (and making big profits from) this Left Behind theory, a new book written by former radio and television broadcaster, Joe Ortiz, provides specific Bible evidence that a pre-tribulation escape to heaven is sheer folly, conjecture and inference, and has not been biblically proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Many Bible expositors and eschatology writers (such as Dave MacPherson, Steve Wohlberg, Ted Noel, Barbara Rossing, Arnie Suntag and others) have arrived at the same conclusions. Like Ortiz, they have come forward and are presenting strong Biblical evidence that Left Behind theories have no biblical foundation whatsoever!.

In his book, The End Times Passover, Ortiz uses an etymological analysis of key Bible passages to dramatically prove that modern day interpretations of the Bible have, in reality, been reversed by theorists to convey a different meaning than God intended. For example, many pre-tribulation theorists use the scripture in Luke 17:34-37 to support their theory that Christians will be “taken” to Heaven and unbelievers will be “left” behind to suffer God’s wrath during the so-called Great Tribulation. However, if you examine the definition of the word “taken,” you will notice that the Greek word is “paralambano,” which means “to seize and to bind,” whereas the word for “left” in the Greek is “aphiemi,” which means “to forgive (passover, suffer, leave them alone, do not touch).” In essence, theorists’ interpretation of this scripture is truly a reversed and contradictory premise to their pet theory and, in reality, those verses harmonizes more so with the scriptures concerning the separating of the chaff from the wheat for burning when He returns.

This is one of over a hundred similar biblical word comparison study examples that The End Times Passover contains that refute a pre-tribulation escape to Heaven. This new book includes irrefutable and biblical proof that Christians will remain on Earth not only during the so-called “Great Tribulation,” but will also be on earth during the time God pours out His great wrath. Ortiz’ book, however, offers biblical proof that the Christian will be protected during God’s wrath-outpouring. God has provided an End Times Passover rescue program for His chosen people, just as he did when He rescued Israel from Egyptian bondage, Noah from the flood, Daniel from the lions den, and Meschaq, Chadrack and Abednego from the fiery furnace.

In Ortiz’ book, you will see biblical proof that refutes a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, including topics: Who Comprises the True Church of God? Is the Rapture a special event? Is the Church Really the Bride! Who is the True Bride of Christ? Who are the Guests at the Great Wedding? What is the True Promised Land? What is New Jerusalem? What is The Holy City of God? Who Really Accompanies the Lord When He Returns? Do Christians Immediately Go To Heaven When They Die? Is the Holy Spirit Removed? The Apostasy of the Church! The Duality of God’s Miracles! What is True Temptation? When Does the Lord Really Return? Will Christians Go Through Tribulation? and Will (and can) Christians Lose Their Salvation? These topics and more are accurately and biblically detailed to unveil truths many great prophesy teachers and writers have missed…until now!

If you would like a FREE copy of the book, you can download a zipped PDF by clicking below:

http://www.etpv.org/books.html

Liz Beth, this is the polar opposite of communists lobbying Clinton. We don't need these people "legally" lobbying, if they're lobbying us into wars we do not need to be involved in. Simple.

According to the New Testament, Jesus said that nobody knows what day or hour he will return. The terms "day" and "hour" in indicate historical time frame, meaning quite plainly, nobody knows.

This answer is a whole lot more straight forward and takes up a whole lot less ink than the complicated mess I tried to wade through that Joe Ortiz has written above.

Jesus just as plainly taught that war is not a solution. He just as plainly taught that we should help the sick and poor and plainly, Jesus said nothing about abortion, either pro or con.

Jerry Falwell and Company are plainly liars, they have always plainly been liars and most likely, plainly always will be. Jesus plainly called them "liars, hypocrites, snakes and blind leaders of the blind" (apparently political correctness was not his forte).

Why not just state the plain and obvious like it is? We have enough mass confusion to worry about without muddying the polluted waters any further.

The scariest part of the whole thing isn't that they're lobbying...it's that the President is LISTENING. To me, that would tend to indicate that the President is as crazy as they are! If these people are as truly Christian as they claim, it would make more sense to try to delay the Rapture as long as possible in order to save the maximum number of souls - not bring it sooner in the expectation of getting a free hall pass. Even if you believe their fanatical claptrap, that's purely selfish behavior on their part. Not to mention that it has no Biblical basis, whatsoever.

It seems to me that the President's religious beliefs (and having grown up as a Methodist I can tell you that he DEFINITELY doesn't share Methodist beliefs) have gotten WAY too mixed in to his political actions if these are the type of people he chooses as advisors.

"These charlatans will have some explaining when judgment day comes." Yessiree. Glad to hear someone say that. I hope that this cheesus fella is for real and he really is coming down for a look see. Gonna be one ticked off son of a gun. Real ticked off. When he sees what the predatorials have done to innocent people, around the world, what they have done to this planet and the life on it, it's gonna hit the fan. Big time. I'm not personally worried about his reaction, in my case, if he or it is what the fables say he/she/it is about. The dominionists, on the other hand, are quite confused about these matters, in light of the genocide that they have fomented against innocents everywhere. And the destruction of our Nation. Yessiree, cheesus, come on down, got a few surprises for ya. Maybe you could clean up all this so called 'depleted'Uranium these dominionist asses have spread all over the planet, so we can quit breathing it. Guess they thought they wouldn't be in town so it wouldn't matter to them anyway. Guess what? According to DOJ statistics, for decades too, the SE us has the highest rates of criminal child abuse and wife battering. Imagine that. Spare the rod and spoil the child, wife too I guess. Grew up down there. Lotta nice folks. A whole lot of not nice folks. I feel sorry for the decent ones. I'm thankful to have left that behind decades ago. Before I was ten, two different domy church officials attempted to molest me on separate occasions. Hard to forget that. No. Cheesus is gonna be pissed. I know I am. Come on down cheesus, let's git it on, we got some cleanin up to do. I'll be glad to lend a hand.

The Bushie nazi-fascist neocons and fundamentalist right wing theocrats both protestants and catholics are causing death and destruction here in America and around the world. I cannot believe that these vicious people are doing the work of God. On four occassions Bush claimed to be chosen by God but my bible says God chose his only begotten son and I absolutely believe that was Jesus Christ and not George Bush.

Bush is a heretic and a blasphemer as are the theocrats for supporting and agreeing with him and following this false god. Bush, the Republicans, theocrats and a few Big Businesses are dooming the world by threatening everyone and constantly boiling the pot and sowing the seeds of fear and hate.

This very small group of people are fulfilling their own private agendas'. They believe so strongly that they know the mind of God but only God knows the mind of God and no one else ever will in this world or the next.

The pope may think he knows the mind of God as do Falwell and Robertson et.al. ad nauseam but they reveal themselves to be what they really are, non christians.

Religions are made up by human beings and human beings are often wrong and when they behave as if they know the mind of God they are proving themselves to be fools who are completely wrong.

These fundamentalist religious groups are of one mind now but they will probably be at each others throats if the end times do not come in 2013 or whenever THEY think it will arrive.

Let's remember the Catholics have always hated/disliked the Jews and Protestants, the Protestants have always hated/disliked the Catholics and Jews. When will the intolerance and hate of these religions ever stop. Maybe that is when Jesus will return, who knows, I don't nor does anyone else.

When the Catholics and Protestants stop supporting the Republican party and the nazi-fascist neocons and their 'slash and burn politics' of intolerance, hate and killing for greed and political power then America will have made a GIANT STEP in the right direction.

Dave MacPherson was mentioned above. He's the only historian I know of who has focused for more than 35 years on pretribulation rapturism's history, and the one who has found more of the long hidden primary "rapture" documents of the early 19th century in British libraries etc. than anyone else. To see his stunning articles on MSN, Google etc., type in "Seeds of Armageddon Theology," "Pretrib Rapture Diehards" (note LaHaye's hypocrisy under "1992"), "The Rapture Index (Mad Theology)," "Thomas Ice (Bloopers)," "Famous Rapture Watchers," "Appendix F: Thou Shalt Not Steal," "Revisers of Pretrib Rapture History," and "Deceiving and Being Deceived" - just a few of his many items. MacPherson views the pretrib rapture view as "the greatest hoax in religion in the past 200 years." But things are changing, and many are now beginning to see the light and even abandoning the pretrib nonsense. Bruce

Personally I feel that anyone that lives their life completely in order of a book written 2000 years ago by humans, edited numerous times by people speaking many different languages and then postulated on by otherwise "normal" people with no real gift for anything other than orating are setting themselves up for trouble. No matter where you go or who you talk to you always hear the same thing; "The good book says", "The Bible says", "Jesus says"....none of these are true. The books and Bibles dont SAY anything, they are read. The meaning of what is written differs upon who is reading it. Jesus hasnt said anything in over 2000 years as far as I am aware, so there goes that argument.

Humans are fundamentally flawed in their views on religion because they dont pay attention to the things that should be getting attention. Growing up in church I always heard about who was wrong, and I always heard about the pain of not being saved. I never heard about WHY these people were wrong other than the standard, "The Bible says".

Personally I feel that if you are a good person, you treat people well and as if they were your equal...you will go far and live a good life. If there is a heaven you may even see it. I also believe that all religions should be disbanded. Religion has caused (whether directly or indirectly) nearly every major conflict in the world since the beginnings of written history. Religion is the ONLY issue in this world today that threatens the existance of humankind other than our massive resource depletion. Religion is the stop gap for everything.

Religion has caused important research into medical treatments to grind to a halt. Religion has caused laws to be passed in the United States that violate a person's human and civil rights. Religion has caused the death of 6 million jews in the holocaust, and 11 million jews in Europe many years before. Religion has caused the deaths of muslims since the first crusades until even now. Religion has caused the deaths of christians since the beginnings of Christianity up to now. Religion has caused the deaths of thousands of people though to be witches and warlocks.

Religion caused those things. Millions if not Billions of deaths throughout history because of a name in a book, or lack thereof. Look beyond the gilded pages of your personal Bible. Look at the meaning underneath it all. Look for the part where it says to be a good person and not to hurt others. Stop fighting over vague descriptions of locations and verses that could mean anything, everything, or nothing at all. Stop doing exactly the opposite of what these books were meant to accomplish.

He who resorts to ad hominem, has run out of arguements.

Dave MacPherson is an individual who loves to hate pretribulationism.
In fact, he has thought up new ways to express his distain for
pretribulationism by fabricating a false history of the pre-trib
rapture. For the last thirty-plus years, MacPherson has dedicated his
life to full time rapture hating in an attempt to participate in
anything that he believes will obstruct its spread.

A Great Conspiracy Theory?

MacPherson believes that the key elements of the doctrine of the
pretribulational rapture originated with a young Scottish girl named
Margaret Macdonald in Spring of 1830. This is the thesis put forth in
a number of books and publications for over thirty years by
MacPherson, a newsman turned rapture researcher. MacPherson's major
book The Rapture Plot (Millennium III Publishers, 1994), is only one
of the latest in a series of revisions of his original discourse The
Unbelievable Pre-Trib Origin (Heart of America Bible Society, 1973).
His books include the following: The Three R's: Rapture, Revisionism,
Robbery (P.O.S.T., 1998), The Great Rapture Hoax (New Puritan
Library, 1983), Rapture? (New Puritan Library, 1987), The Incredible
Cover-Up (Omega Publications, 1975), The Late Great Pre-Trib Rapture
(Heart of America Bible Society, 1974).

Dave MacPherson is convinced "that the popular Pre-Trib Rapture
teaching of today was really instigated by a teenager in Scotland who
lived in the early 1800's." (Hoax, p. 7.) "If Christians had known
all along," bemoans MacPherson concerning the historical beginnings of
the pretrib rapture, "the state of Christianity could have been vastly
different today." (Hoax, p. 180). He does not think that this
research has been mere historical oversight, but rather a
well-orchestrated "cover-up" which has been carefully managed by
clever pretrib leaders each step of the way, even alleging that Dallas
Seminary was grooming and commissioning Hal Lindsey for the purpose of
popularizing the pretrib rapture for the Jesus Movement in the early
70's. (Incredible Cover-Up, pp, 131-32). Jim McKeever, in the forward
of the book, compares this pretrib cover-up to the Watergate cover-up.
Before we get into the background of the pretrib rapture lets run a
background check on MacPherson.

MacPherson's Background
MacPherson has dedicated his life to the cause of disrupting
belief in the pretrib rapture, since, according to his interpretation,
it has been the cause for great disruption in his own life. "Back in
1953 I had a jolting encounter with the Rapture," is the opening
sentence in MacPherson's Rapture Hoax (p. 3). This is a reference to
his expulsion from a Christian College in California (BIOLA) for
propagating views that conflicted with pretribulationism. He suggests
that this experience was so devastating that it accounts for a setback
in his Christian life. Because of his discouragement, MacPherson and
a friend went out and got drunk in Mexico and passed out. MacPherson
says this was a brush with death because of the many dangers that
could befall someone in such a condition in Mexico. Later, he was
involved in a wreck with a car while riding his motorcycle and almost
lost his left arm. But these were not the beginning of his nor his
family's troubles because of the pretrib rapture.

Robert L. Sumner has noted that "MacPherson has a bad habit of
attributing all kinds of personal tragedies to the pre-trib teaching:
his mother's death, his sister's inability to have more children, his
own failure to follow through on his calling as an evangelist, and
other matters." ("'Looking For The Blessed Horrible Holocaust!' A
book review of The Late Great Pre-Trib Rapture" in The Biblical
Evangelist (May, 1975), p. 8.) Sumner cites another "illustration of
how paranoid he has become concerns his conclusion that his 'lovable
dog, Wolf' apparently became demon possessed just about the time
MacPherson was about to write his first anti-pretribulation book,
savagely biting his writing hand several times." ("Hope? Or Hoax?" The
Biblical Evangelist (Feb., 1984), p. 7.)

Trials and tribulation due to the pretrib rapture seems to run
in the MacPherson family. Dave's father, Norman, had planted a church
in Long Beach, California and was doing quite well until a group of
new people in the church caused a commotion over the timing of the
rapture. Norman MacPherson was forced out of this prospering church
because he had shifted from the pretrib to the posttrib view of the
rapture. Norman S. MacPherson had authored posttrib books, Tell It
Like It Will Be (privately printed, 1970), and Triumph Through
Tribulation (by the author, 1944). He then started another, less
successful church in Long Beach. Dave MacPherson displays a habit of
blaming many of the personal tragedies in his life on the pretrib
rapture teaching.

In 1983 MacPherson declared, "Fifteen years ago I knew nothing
about Pre-Trib beginnings." (Hoax, p. 47) He began his quest by
writing to his father and received back an answer which indicated a
lack of consensus among scholars, "so I decided to do some research on
my own." (Hoax, p. 47) MacPherson's investigation gathered steam when
he found a rare book in 1971 by Robert Norton, The Restoration of
Apostles and Prophets; In the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861). "The
important part in Norton's book," claimed MacPherson, "is a personal
revelation that Margaret Macdonald had in the spring of 1830." (Hoax,
p. 47) MacPherson uses this finding to project the notion that the
source of the pretrib rapture is of demonic origin through a
15-year-old Scottish lassie.

For MacPherson, his calling in life is a crusade to develop and
sharpen his theory and to propagate it around the world. Operating as
would any covert agent in hostile, enemy territory, MacPherson has
made many trips onto the enemy turf of pretrib colleges and seminaries
in order to dispense his material. His campaigns have led him to
travel around the country with his message of the hidden story of the
genesis of the pretrib rapture, which he believes if people knew, the
doctrine would virtually become extinct. This mission has taken him
to such places as Dallas Seminary, the great stronghold of the
pretribs, where he speaks of distributing literature informing naive
pretribers concerning their heritage. (I have retrieved two of his
clandestine flyers from library books at the seminary.) As another
typical example, he once blitzed a bus of students from Jerry
Falwell's college. John Walvoord has noted:

MacPherson made these charges against pretribulationism and then
afterward went to great lengths to find historic verification. . . .
Readers will be impressed that as a newsman MacPherson builds a strong
case for his position, but will be less impressed when they begin to
analyze what he has actually proved. (John F. Walvoord, The Blessed
Hope and the Tribulation (Zondervan, 1979), pp. 42-43.)

MacPherson's Claims

Irvingite Robert Norton included a handwritten account of
Margaret Macdonald's "prophecy," which is said by MacPherson to be the
fountainhead for J. N. Darby's development into the pretrib rapture
doctrine. MacPherson does not say that Macdonald's utterance included
a clear statement of the pretrib rapture, but that she "separated the
Rapture from the Second Coming before anyone else did." ." (Hoax, p.
121) According to MacPherson, Darby pilfered this two-stage teaching
from Macdonald, according to MacPherson, and then developed it
systematically, skillfully passing it off as the fruit of his personal
Bible study.

Macdonald's so-called revelation that MacPherson cites to make
his case revolves around two key phrases. "Margaret dramatically
separated the sign of the Son of man from the coming of the Son of
man," (Hoax, p. 125) declares MacPherson based upon the phrase "now
look out for the sign of the Son of man." (Hoax, p. 128) MacPherson
argues that "she equated the sign with the Rapture—a Rapture that
would occur before the revealing of Antichrist." (Hoax, p. 129) He
bases this on her statement, "I saw it was just the Lord himself
descending from Heaven with a shout, just the glorified man, even
Jesus." (Hoax, p. 126)

MacPherson's Errors

MacPherson makes at least three major errors in his attempt to
argue that Margaret Macdonald originated the basis for the pretrib
rapture. First, it is highly doubtful that the Macdonald "prophecy"
contains the two-stage coming of Christ, as MacPherson advocates.
Therefore, it would be impossible for this source to be the basis for
a new idea if it did not contain those elements. MacPherson has
misinterpreted Macdonald's words by equating her use of "sign" with a
rapture. Rather, she is saying that only those who are spiritual will
see the secret sign of the Son of Man which will precede the single,
posttrib second coming of Christ. In other words only those who have
the light of the Holy Spirit within them will know when the second
coming will take place because this spiritual enlightenment will
enable them to have the spiritual perception to see the secret sign
(not secret rapture). These are her own words:

. . . all must, as Stephen was, be filled with the Holy Ghost, that
they might look up, and see the brightness of the Father's glory. I
saw the error to be, that men think that it will be something seen by
the natural eye; but tis spiritual discernment that is needed, the eye
of God in his people. . . . Only those who have the light of God
within them will see the sign of his appearance. No need to follow
them who say, see here, or see there, for his day shall be as the
lightning to those in whom the living Christ is. Tis Christ in us
that will lift us up--he is the light--tis only those that are alive
in him that will be caught up to meet him in the air. I saw that we
must be in the Spirit, that we might see spiritual things. John was
in the Spirit, when he saw a throne set in Heaven. . . . it is not
knowledge about God that it contains, but it is an entering into God .
. . I felt that those who were filled with the Spirit could see
spiritual things, and feel walking in the midst of them, those who had
not the Spirit could see nothing. . . (Hoax, pp. 126-27)

Macdonald is clearly concerned with spiritual insights for the
following reasons: 1) Stephen saw into heaven; he was not raptured or
taken to heaven. 2) She clearly says that the sign will be seen only
by the spiritually enlightened and that it would not be a natural or
physical sign, but one perceived by "spiritual discernment." 3) She
is talking about "the sign of his appearance," not an actual
appearance. 4) Once a person has been so enlightened, they will have
no need for direction from others, they will be guided directly by
"the living Christ." 5) The whole emphasis is upon seeing: "John was
in the Spirit, when he saw," "those who were filled with the Spirit
could see." Posttrib advocate D. H. Kromminga observes that
Macdonald's "prophecies made it plain that the return of the Lord
depended upon the proper spiritual preparation of His Church." (D. H.
Kromminga, The Millennium in the Church: Studies in the History of
Christian Chiliasm, (Eerdmans, 1945), p. 250.)

Anti-pretrib rapture advocate, John Bray, agrees that she was
only teaching a single coming and not a two-staged event. "The only
thing new in her revelation itself seems to be that of just
Spirit-filled Christian being caught up at the second coming of Christ
following heavy trials and tribulation by the Antichrist," notes Bray.
(John L. Bray, The Origin of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Teaching
(John L. Bray Ministry, n.d.), pp. 21-22) In other words Macdonald
appears to be teaching a posttrib, partial rapture. Bray further
explains:

It seems to me that Margaret MacDonald was saying that Christians WILL
face the temptation of the false Christ (antichrist) and be in "an
awfully dangerous situation", and that only the Spirit IN US will
enable us to be kept from being deceived; and that as the Spirit
works, so will the antichrist; but the pouring out of the Spirit will
"fit us to enter into the marriage supper of the Lamb", and those
filled with the Spirit would be taken while the others would be left.
. . . Margaret MacDonald did teach a partial rapture, of course, but
this did not necessarily mean that the teaching included a tribulation
period FOLLOWING THAT for the other Christians. . . . It would not be
right to take for granted that Margaret MacDonald believed in a
tribulation period following the appearing of Christ unless she had
definitely said so. Rather, it would be more logical to think that
her view would have been the same as prevalent among the futurists at
that time, that is, tribulation then the second coming. (Bray, Origin,
pp. 20-21).

Another point MacPherson makes to support his opinion is that
"Margaret Macdonald was the first person to teach a coming of Christ
that would precede the days of Antichrist." (Cover-Up, pp. 155-56.)
This would mean, according to MacPherson, that Macdonald had to be
teaching a two-stage coming. However, it is highly questionable, as
noted above, that Macdonald was referring to the rapture as MacPherson
insists. Also Macdonald was still a historicist; she believed the
Church was already in the tribulation and had been for hundreds of
years. Therefore, the Antichrist was to be soon revealed, but before
the second coming. She said believers needed the spiritual sight, so
that they would not be deceived. Otherwise, why would believers,
including herself, need to be filled with the Spirit in order to
escape the deception which will accompany "the fiery trial which is to
try us" associated with the Antichrist's arrival? Further, she
certainly includes herself as one who needs this special ministry of
the Holy Spirit as can be seen from this passage from her
"revelation."

. . . now shall the awful sight of a false Christ be seen on this
earth, and nothing but the living Christ in us can detect this awful
attempt of the enemy to deceive . . . The Spirit must and will be
purged out on the church, that she may be purified and filled with God
. . . There will be outward trial too, but 'tis principally
temptation. It is brought on by the outpouring of the Spirit, and
will just increase in proportion as the Spirit is poured out. The
trial of the Church is from the Antichrist. It is by being filled
with the Spirit that we shall be kept. I frequently said, Oh be
filled with the Spirit--have the light of God in you, that you may
detect satan--be full of eyes within--be clay in the hands of the
potter--submit to be filled, filled with God. . . . This is what we
are at present made to pray much for, that speedily we may all be made
ready to meet our Lord in the air--and it will be. Jesus wants his
bride. His desire is toward us. (Hoax, pp. 127-28)

Ryrie also notes a further misunderstanding of Macdonald's "prophecy":
"She saw the church ("us") being purged by Antichrist. MacPherson
reads this as meaning the church will be raptured before Antichrist,
ignoring the "us" (pp. 154-55). In reality, she saw the church
enduring Antichrist's persecution of the Tribulation days." (Charles
Ryrie, What You Should Know About the Rapture (Moody, 1981), p. 71.)

Further, there is no historical evidence that Macdonald, Edward
Irving, or the Irvingites ever held to pretribulationism. So how
could non-pretribulationists be the source of pretribulationism?
Recently, one of the most extensive critical analysis ever produced on
Irvingite doctrine declared that they were still historicist, while
Darby and the Brethren had become futurist. Columba G. Flegg notes
that the Brethren teaching on the rapture and the present invisible
and spiritual nature of the church,

were in sharp contrast to Catholic Apostolic teaching, . . . There
were thus very significant differences between the two eschatologies,
and attempts to see any direct influence of one upon the other seem
unlikely to succeed–they had a number of common roots, but are much
more notable for their points of disagreement. Several writers
[referring specifically to MacPherson] have attempted to trace Darby's
secret rapture theory to a prophetic statement associated with Irving,
but their arguments do not stand up to serious criticism. (Columba
Graham Flegg, 'Gathered Under Apostles' A Study of the Catholic
Apostolic Church (Clarendon Press, 1992), p. 436.)

Second, in spite of MacPherson's great amount of research and
writing he has yet to produce any hard evidence that Darby was
influenced by Macdonald's utterance, regardless of what they meant.
MacPherson only assumes the connection. If MacPherson's suppositional
approach were applied to the study of history, then we can make all
kinds of connections between people and events. It would mean that
you could "prove" that since Hubert Humphrey had a slick lawyer's
mind, was in Washington D.C. during the early 70's, and was
well-informed, he must have known about the Watergate break-in before
it became public. Walvoord observes that,

Readers of MacPherson's Incredible Cover-Up will undoubtedly be
impressed by the many long quotations, most of which are only window
dressing for what he is trying to prove. When it gets down to the
point of proving that either MacDonald or Irving was
pretribulationist, the evidence gets very muddy. The quotations
MacPherson cites do not support his conclusion. (Walvoord, The Blessed
Hope and the Tribulation, p. 44.)

Throughout MacPherson's writings, he keeps dumping information
about issues, developments, and beliefs from Great Briton during the
early 1800's apparently thinking that he is adding proof for his
thesis, that "the popular Pre-Trib Rapture teaching of today was
really instigated by a teenager in Scotland who lived in the early
1800's." (Hoax, p. 7.) Much of the information is helpful and
interesting, but does not prove his thesis. If his research were
represented as a river, it would be a mile wide (amount of
information) but only an inch deep (actual proof). Even if Darby
developed the pretrib rapture after Macdonald's utterance, specific
proof would be needed to make a link between Macdonald and Darby.
Instead MacPherson only offers speculative guesses about how Darby
used his training for the law profession to manipulate Christians by
hiding the supposed true origins of the pretrib rapture. Perhaps
MacPherson is using his investigative, journalism training and
experience to publicly smear Darby. This leads to my final point.

Third, Brethren writer, Roy A. Huebner claims and documents his
belief that J. N. Darby first began to believe in the pre-trib rapture
and develop his dispensational thinking while convalescing from a
riding accident during December 1826 and January 1827. (R. A. Huebner,
Precious Truths Revived and Defended Through J. N. Darby, Vol. 1
[Present Truth Publishers, 1991].) If this is true, and there is
every reason to believe that it is, then all of the
origin-of-the-rapture-conspiracy-theories fall to the ground in a heap
of speculative rubble. Darby would have at least a three-year jump on
any who would have supposedly influenced his thought, making it
impossible for all the "influence" theories to have any credibility.

Huebner provides clarification and evidence that Darby was not
influenced by Margaret Macdonald, Lacunza, Edward Irving, or any of
the Irvingites. These are all said by the detractors of Darby and the
pre-trib rapture to be bridges that led to Darby's thought. Instead,
Huebner demonstrates that Darby's understanding of the pre-trib
rapture was the product of the development of his personal interactive
thought with the text of Scripture as he, his friends, and
dispensationalists have long contended.

Darby's pre-trib and dispensational thoughts, says Huebner, were
developed from the following factors: 1) "he saw from Isaiah 32 that
there was a different dispensation coming . . . that Israel and the
Church were distinct" (Precious Truths, p. 17). 2) "During his
convalescence JND learned that he ought daily to expect his Lord's
return." (Precious Truths, p. 19). 3) "In 1827 JND understood the
fall of the church. . . 'the ruin of the Church'" (Precious Truths, p.
18). 4) Darby also was beginning to see a gap of time between the
rapture and the second coming by 1827 (Precious Truths, p. 23). 5)
Darby, himself, said in 1857 that he first started understanding
things relating to the pre-trib Rapture "thirty years ago." "With
that fixed point of reference, Jan. 31, 1827," declares Huebner, we
can see that Darby "had already understood those truths upon which the
pre-tribulation rapture hinges" (Precious Truths, p. 24).

German author Max S. Weremchuk has produced a major new
biography on Darby entitled John Nelson Darby: A Biography (Loizeaux
Brothers, 1992). He agrees with Huebner's conclusions concerning the
matter. "Having read MacPherson's book . . ." says Weremchuk, "I find
it impossible to make a just comparison between what Miss MacDonald
'prophesied' and what Darby taught. It appears that the wish was the
father of the idea" (Weremchuk, Darby, p. 242).

When reading Darby's earliest published essay on biblical
prophecy (1829), it is clear that while it still has elements of
historicism, it also reflects the fact that for Darby, the rapture was
to be the church's focus and hope. Even in this earliest of essays,
Darby expounds upon the rapture as the church's hope.

Pre-Darby Raptures
In addition to the above points, there have been at least three
pre-Darby rapture discoveries in the last decade. Evidence of
pretribulationism surfaces during the early medieval period in a
sermon some attribute to Ephraem the Syrian entitled Sermon on The
Last Times, The Antichrist, and The End of the World. The sermon was
written some time between the fourth and sixth century. The rapture
statement reads as follows:

Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and
prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may
draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? . . . For
all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation
that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion
that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.

This statement evidences a clear belief that all Christians will
escape the tribulation through a gathering to the Lord. How else can
this be understood other than as pretribulational? The later second
coming of Christ to the earth with the saints is mentioned at the end
of the sermon.

Francis Gumerlock, an anti-pretribulationist, claims that
someone named Brother Dolcino taught a form of the pre-trib rapture in
1304. The reason that Gumerlock believes that Brother Dolcino and the
Apostolic Brethren taught pretribulationism is found the following
statement:

Again, [Dolcino believed and preached and taught] that within those
three years Dolcino himself and his followers will preach the coming
of the Antichrist. And that the Antichrist was coming into this world
within the bounds of the said three and a half years; and after he had
come, then he [Dolcino] and his followers would be transferred into
Paradise, in which are Enoch and Elijah. And in this way they will be
preserved unharmed from the persecution of Antichrist. And that then
Enoch and Elijah themselves would descend on the earth for the purpose
of preaching [against] Antichrist. Then they would be killed by him
or by his servants, and thus Antichrist would reign for a long time.
But when the Antichrist is dead, Dolcino himself, who then would be
the holy pope, and his perserved followers, will descend on the earth,
and will preach the right faith of Christ to all, and will convert
those who will be living then to the true faith of Jesus Christ.
(Gumerlock's translation of the Latin text in Francis Gumerlock, "A
Rapture Citation in the Fourteenth Century," Bibliotheca Sacra
(July-Sept. 2002), pp. 354-55.)

Gumerlock clearly believes that this is a pretrib rapture
statement as he concludes:

Two things are fairly certain from The History of Brother
Dolcino. First, Dolcino and the Apostolic Brethren believed that the
purpose of the rapture was related to the escape of the saints from
the end-time tribulation and persecution of the Antichrist. Second,
Dolcino and the Apostolic Brethren believed that there would be a
significant gap of time between the rapture of the saints to paradise
and their subsequent descent to earth. Because of this The History of
Brother Dolcino stands as yet another literary witness for the
existence of pretribulationism before the nineteenth century. As
such, it challenges evangelicals to reevaluate their thinking about
the history of the pretribulational rapture, especially those views
that place the origin of the teaching or its initial recovery within
the last two hundred years. For this fourteenth-century text
demonstrates that there were some in the Middle Ages who held a
theology of the rapture that includes basic elements in
pretribulationalism. ("A Rapture Citation," p. 362)

Frank Marotta believes that Thomas Collier in 1674 makes
reference to a pretribulational rapture, but rejects the view, (Frank
Marotta, Morgan Edwards: An Eighteenth Century Pretribulationist
(Present Truth Publishers, 1995), pp. 10-12.) thus showing his
awareness that such a view was being taught. One could not have
objected to something that did not exist.

Perhaps the clearest reference to a pretrib rapture before Darby
comes from Baptist Morgan Edwards (founder of Brown University) in
1742-44 who saw a distinct rapture three and a half years before the
start of the millennium. During his student days at Bristol Baptist
Seminary in England (1742-44), Morgan Edwards wrote an essay for
eschatology class on his views of Bible prophecy. This essay was
later published in Philadelphia (1788) under the following title: Two
Academical Exercises on Subjects Bearing the following Titles;
Millennium, Last-Novelties. The term in the title "Last-Novelties"
refers to what we would call today the eternal state; "novelties"
refers to the new conditions of the future new heavens and new earth,
not that he had a novel view of the Bible. Upon reading the 56-page
work, it is evident that Edwards published it with only minor changes
from his student days. Thus, it represents a view that he had
developed by the early 1740s. Thus, we can date Edwards'
pretribulationism as originating in the early 1740s. The
pretribulationism of Morgan Edwards can be see in the following
statement from his book:

II. The distance between the first and second resurrection will be
somewhat more than a thousand years.

I say, somewhat more—, because the dead saints will be raised, and the
living changed at Christ's "appearing in the air" (I Thes. iv. 17);
and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium,
as we shall see hereafter: but will he and they abide in the air all
that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those
many "mansions in the father's house" (John xiv. 2), and so disappear
during the foresaid period of time. The design of this retreat and
disappearing will be to judge the risen and changed saints; for "now
the time is come that judgment must begin," and that will be "at the
house of God" (I Pet. iv. 17) . . . (p. 7; emphasis added; the
spelling of all Edwards quotes have been modernized)

What has Edwards said? Note the following:

• He believes that at least 1,003.5 years will transpire between resurrections.

• He associates the first resurrection with the rapture in 1
Thessalonians 4:17, occurring at least 3.5 years before the start of
the millennium (i.e., at least 3.5 years before the second coming of
Christ at the start of the millennium).

• He associates the meeting of believers with Christ in the air and
returning to the Father's house with John 14:2, as do modern
pretribulationists.

• He sees believers disappearing during the time of the tribulation,
which he goes on to describe in the rest of the section from which the
rapture statement is taken.

• He, like modern pretribulationists, links the time in heaven, during
the tribulation, with the "bema" judgment of believers.

It is clear that Edwards believed in a two-staged return of
Christ at least 85 years before Darby. Edwards' pre-Darby statement
is something that MacPherson cannot answer. I am not claiming that
Darby was influenced by Morgan Edwards.

Conclusion

F.F. Bruce's conclusion as to where Darby got the doctrine of
the pretrib rapture appears to be correct. "It was in the air in the
1820s and 1830s among eager students of unfulfilled prophecy, . . .
direct dependence by Darby on Margaret Macdonald is unlikely." (F. F.
Bruce, Review of The Unbelievable Pre-Trib Origin in The Evangelical
Quarterly, (Jan-Mar, 1975), p. 58.) Dave MacPherson has failed to
demonstrate that Macdonald's "prophecy" contains latent rapture ideas,
nor has he linked Darby to her influence with clear, historical
evidence. This is why the doctrine of the pretribulational rapture
did not begin with Margaret Macdonald. Perhaps Darby's training at
Dublin accounts for many of his views, especially his views of the
nature of the church. Walvoord concludes,

any careful student of Darby soon discovers that he did not get his
eschatological views from men, but rather from his doctrine of the
church as the body of Christ, a concept no one claims was revealed
supernaturally to Irving or Macdonald. Darby's views undoubtedly were
gradually formed, but they were theologically and biblically based
rather than derived from Irving's pre-Pentecostal group. (Walvoord,
The Blessed Hope and the Tribulation, p. 47.)

By Tommy Ice

Faith in Jesus Christ has replaced physical lineage as the determining factor for identifying God's chosen people. There is neither Jew nor Greek...for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Flesh and blood can not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. “You must be born again.”(Jn 3:3) If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Gal 3:28-29) ( In Genesis, God promised that whosoever blesses Abraham and his seed, God would also bless. So, whosoever blesses Christians, God blesses. How much better can it get than that? Want a blessing? Then, do something to bless God's Chosen People, Abraham's seed: Christian believers in Jesus Christ!)
…“hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth…” (Acts 17:26). God is not a racist. Through faith in Christ Jesus, all who believe—Jew or Gentile—are made citizens of heavenly "Zion," the "Commonwealth of Israel." All believers comprise the "Israel of God." (See Eph. 2:11-22 and 4; and Gal. 6:14-16) Matthew 21:43, Jesus declared to the Jews: "Therefore say I unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation(Gentile) bringing forth the fruits thereof." Based, then, strictly on the testimony of Jesus our Lord, we know for sure that Jews who reject Jesus—and almost all the Jews who live in the U.S.A. and who populate today's nation of Israel fall into this category—are not God's Chosen.
Justin Martyr (circa 100 to 165 CE) and Irenaeus of Lyon (circa 130 to 200 CE) stated that the promises made to the Jews have become invalid and that the Christian church (including any ethnic Jews who have aligned themselves with it) is chosen instead. Pope Pius XII also re-affirmed this doctrine in his encyclical Mystici Corporis (June 29, 1943)
What this all means is that the promise of God, covenantally given to Abraham, that he would be the God of Abraham and of his spiritual descendants after him forever (Gen 17:7-8) extends temporally to the farthest reaches of the future and encompasses the entire community of the redeemed and the renewed cosmos. This is just to say that the Abrahamic covenant, in the specific prospect it holds forth of the salvation of the entire church of God, is identical with the soteric program of the covenant of grace. It also means that the blessings of the covenant of grace that believers in Christ enjoy today under the sanctions of the New Testament economy are founded upon the covenant that God made with Abraham. Said another way, the “new covenant” whose Mediator is Jesus Christ is simply the administrative “extension and unfolding of the Abrahamic covenant” in redemptive history. The church of Jesus Christ, then, not ethnic Israel, is the present day expression of the one people of God whose roots go back to Abraham.
It also highlights the unity of the one covenant of grace and the oneness of God’s people in all ages over against the discontinuities injected into redemptive history by the dispensational heresy that lies at the root of all the bad “land theology” being espoused today concerning Israel’s so-called “perpetual divine right” to the land of Palestine. That is to say, God’s redemptive purpose, first disclosed in Genesis 3:15, once it had come to expression in the terms of the Abrahamic covenant, was continuously advanced thereafter by the successive covenants with Israel, David, and finally the New Covenant.
Accordingly, in his letter to the Gentile churches in Galatia Paul described those who repudiate Judaistic legalism and who “never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus
Christ,” that is, Christ’s church, as “the Israel of God” (Gal 6:12-16). In his Ephesian letter Paul told those Gentile believers that God had in Christ made them citizens of Israel and beneficiaries of the covenants of the promise (Eph 2:11-13). And in his letter to the Philippians Paul declared that those “who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh” are “the [true] circumcision” (Phil 3:3). So clearly, the church of Jesus Christ is the present-day true Israel of God.)

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
Steven Weinberg (1933 - ), quoted in The New York Times, April 20, 1999