Why the USA is second to Israel on the list is because we give Israel a blank check to kill third world people. We give Israel the cluster bombs that are dropped on third world people. 40% of the campaign contributions comes from Zionists so they buy our support. The Arabs have oil. Israel does not. It is not in our national interest to support Israel. We went to war with Iraq for Israel because Saddam was funding the PLO. The Arabs have the oil, it is in our national interst to be friendly with them. Now we will go to war with Iran, according to the Israeli press because Likud says that Iran must be nuked. Then Syria.

Frank, you are aware that there just might be another side to this, right? You are aware that the terrorists that Israel has been dealing with for many many years actively target civilians. You are aware that they have deliberately targeted school buses and hospitals, right?

I'm curious how you would feel sending your children to school in an armored school bus and hoping like hell that the armor is strong enough.

I'm not saying everything Israel does is right. I'm just pointing out that perhaps there is another side you may be missing.

We see the Israeli Likud side and the Christian Zionist side in the American press everyday In Europe, we get another picture, the truth. Read the Nobel Peace prize winner's book. Also, the other Nobel Peace Prize winner, Nelson Mandela was of the same opinion. JewishVoiceForPeace.org tells the truth.

Frank,

I confess that this is an issue to which I have not paid extreme attention. However, I have paid some attention and believe that it is incredibly simplistic to believe there is just a single truth to an issue this complex. I also do not know the book or author to which you refer.

As for the Nobel Prize winners, two points. One, even Einstein made mistakes in physics despite being a Nobel Prize winning physicist. Two, when someone who publicly and proudly took credit for the bombing of school buses filled with children won a Nobel PEACE Prize, the prize became one of dubious honor at best.

And no, I don’t believe either side should have gotten one for their actions at the time. Perhaps if someone can negotiate a lasting peace in the region for at least say 10 years, then they should get the Nobel Peace Prize, but only after some significant period of peace has been established.

Here are a few truths I believe are relevant to the situation:

1. The U.N. could have put a Jewish state somewhere less volatile. Other places were considered. Perhaps this choice of locale was a mistake.
2. There is NO circumstance under which it is EVER acceptable to blow up a school bus full of CHILDREN.
3. Anyone who sees the “other side” to an issue that involves blowing up a school bus filled with children is a sociopath with no moral fiber to speak of.
4. It is very bad when civilians become “collateral damage” in any fighting. It is unacceptable to deliberately target civilians. This is only my opinion, not a real truth. But, I am consistent in this. I also do not believe it was OK for the U.S. to drop atomic bombs on civilian cities.
5. If the Moslems stop fighting, there will instantly be peace in the region; if the Jews stop fighting, they will all be killed. This is true, regardless of which side you believe to be correct on the issues behind the fighting.
6. RELIGION KILLS! There may be a few exceptions to this, most notably Jainism. But, the Judeo-Christian-Islamic religion (deliberately singular) is not among the exceptions.
7. Humans, yes all humans, are xenophobic homicidal idiots. People cannot even recognize that we are all so closely related as to be close cousins, having gone through a time when there were only 3-7,000 people on the planet only 70-80,000 years ago. We are all related, Jews and Moslems even more closely than most due to a common descent from Abraham. There may never have been two groups for whom it would be more appropriate to lay down their weapons and proclaim, “My brother!! Why have we fought so long and so brutally?!”

The majority in the World, who gets unbiased reporting, believe that Israel is the main cause for the problem because they are a first world country who claims to be democratic, so we expect more. Israeli(American supplied) weapons have killed four times as much as these third world people who do not appreciate Apartheid. This war is not over religion. The European Zionists(Khazars) came to Palistine(Balfour Declaration where one country gave parts of a third country that it did not even control at the time)
and occupied it at the expense of the native third world inhabitants(we don't live in the 14th century days of Columbus where this is tolerated)

This idea of the Zionist being G-D's chosen and that they can come back 2000 years later is racist according to the peoples of the World. How would you like the Mexicans to retake California and the southwest? Israel should become a secular state like America where all religions and people are equal. In America, we gave up being "Christian White America" sometime ago. In Israel, it is against the law for a Jew to marry a Moslem. This is where America was a hundred years ago in the field of civil rights. Let all the people of the world work to bring Israel into the 21st century in the area of civil rights. JewishVoiceForPeace.org

Expect more from Israel because they are a first world country??!!? How did they get that way? They started with the same thing as everyone else in the middle east, a desert. They didn't even get the oil that has made many other countries in the region rich but still third world.

As for killings, I think it is patently ridiculous to ignore the targets. Israel targets people that target civilians. It is always always always unconscionable to target civilians, especially hospitals and children. I don't care what came before that.

Apartheid but not religion? Then where exactly is the apart in apartheid? These people are identical except for their religions. If they are not fighting over religion, what are they fighting over? There are no other differences in these two peoples.

As for giving all of the Americas back, I would! Back to the people that lived here before European invasion and conquest. Unfortunately, most are victims of complete genocide.

We gave up being white America, true. We have never been more of a Christian America than we are today. The founding fathers were about as non-theistic as one could possibly be at that time. The godvertisements in the pledge of allegiance and on the backs of our bills came from McCarthyism in the 1950s.

(3/28/01 Nelson Mandela Nobel Peace Prize letter)“If you follow the polls in Israel for the last 30 or 40 years, you clearly find a vulgar racism that includes a third of the population who openly declare themselves to be racist. This racism is of the nature of "I hate Arabs" and "I wish Arabs would be dead". If you also follow the judicial system in Israel you will see there is discrimination against Palestinians, and if you further consider the 1967 occupied territories you will find there are already two judicial systems in operation that represent two different approaches to human life: one for Palestinian life and the other for Jewish life. Additionally there are two different approaches to property and to land. Palestinian property is not recognised as private property because it can be confiscated. Palestinians are not struggling for a "state" but for freedom, liberation and equality, just like we were struggling for freedom in South Africa. Israel's racial discrimination is daily life of most Palestinians. Since Israel is a Jewish state, Israeli Jews are able to accrue special rights which non-Jews cannot do. Israel has deprived millions of Palestinians of their liberty and property. It has perpetuated a system of gross racial discrimination and inequality. It has systematically incarcerated and tortured thousands of Palestinians, contrary to the rules of international law. It has, in particular, waged a war against a civilian population, in particular children.”

I read the BBC article yesterday. Who is Rated #1: Canada. Thank you. Thank you. Oh please, your applause is overwhelming. Thank you very much for this award. I would like to thank...

A question, sure, go ahead?

Canada who?

They just have not heard how the "First Peoples" were shamfully treated by Canada.

Frank,

I've poked around about about the website you keep mentioning. It's all well and good. What I don't understand though, is that regardless of other factors, regardless of who is right and wrong about the underlying issues, WHY ARE YOU UNWILLING TO STATE THAT IT IS WRONG TO BLOW UP A SCHOOL BUS FILLED WITH CHILDREN??!!?

The fact that you find this to be an acceptable action under certain conditions makes me think that you may genuinely be a morally bankrupt sociopath.

There is absolutely NO CONDITION under which this is an acceptable action. The use of terror as a means for negotiation MUST BE CONDEMNED. You not only condone it, you speak out on this blog to defend it. That is unconscionable in the extreme. Both sides in this issue are wrong. But, under no circumstances is terrorism, especially terrorism directed at innocent children, ever acceptable.

Here is a list of terror incidents against school children. All are to be condemned by moral individuals. Many have nothing to do with Israel. As a tactic, this must be stopped.

http://www.schoolterrorism.com/timeline.html

I like school buses. When I was working in the civil rights field in the south, years ago, school buses were hit very close to where I was at. It just broke my heart then and now whenever that happens. I was against apartheid in America, and now I am against it in Israel. I am in solidarity with Nelson Mandela.

It is truly a sad day for us, in the USA, when we can no longer make the positive list! It's a sad day when I hear anyone say it's OK to kill. It's a HORRIBLE day when it's done in the name of religion. When a religion does more harm than good, then it's time to dispense with it. What's the big deal with disposing with a failed form of government, anyway? That is what religion is, it is supposed to instill socialism into the society so they can live together without all of this trouble and killing. The three major religions have failed, it's time to find another way to instill a reasonable moral code, one that is not so easily manipulated to do harm. We must start thinking for ourselves, learn to be even handed when dealing with others, wrong is wrong no matter who is doing it. Where did REASON go? We need to accept the fact that we are animals and it's much easier to do bad than to do good! We need to stay above our base animal instincts, rise up work for the betterment of all peoples, world wide!

Ranselar is right. Christianity,Isam, and Budhism are the world's three major religions which have 1billion +. Judaism is a minority that has only around 15million, so stop picking on us. Unlike the other religions, we do not try to get converts. We are a maternal religion, Judaism comes through the mother. We are not paternalistic(except for the Orthodox who take the Talmud too seriously).

Israel was created with the help of the US on other people's territory. This should have never happened. Humanity has an honored way of conquering land and that is called war. Israel did not go to war to get that piece of land, the US just gave it to them.

Second, Israel, after being given as a gift land belonging to others (humans as well) decided it was not enough, they needed to have MORE!!! So they did go to war and annexed other lands that belonged to the other people. Please note, the US financed that war as well.

Now, it is no wonder that those abused peoples will fight for their land (terrorism is the only available means to the fighting poor) and believe me, they will fight until the end of times for what is theirs by right.

If anybody would bother to study ancient middle east history they would be able to see that the whole judaiac thing is a fallacy springing from lust for power. The tribes were war-loving, tyranic and abusive and they annexed land by war and lost it to the Romans by war as well. And so we go full circle. That land was not theirs anymore after losing it to the Romans around Jesus's time. And they NEVER GOT IT BACK by fair means. The fact that they mention their god and their tradition to claim rights to the land is discusting in my opinion.

And who right now has lust for power more than anybody? And who justifies everything through a god? A country that starts with a "U" ... do you know which one it is? I'll give you a clue, it is not Uzbekistan or Yugoslavia. I am surprised this country is not # 1 on the list.

A couple of corrections to Mar's comment:

1) Britain gave the land and it was a British colony. This was by UN resolution.

2) Israel was attacked on their highest holiday, won the war in just 6 days, and annexed the land.

I agree with you about US though.

Israel promotes NOT a vision of a inclusive "multi-cultural," "multi-ethnic" society (like we do in America) for Israel, but instead a racist exclusionary "Jewish state." It is racist because a Jew is defined as coming from a Jewish mother(genes). That state is openly dedicated to the advancement of the Jewish religion, culture, and even the genetic preservation of the Jewish people. It vigorously opposes intermarriage of Jews with non-Jews. Israel's Parliament has passed a law preventing Palestinians who marry Israelis from living in Israel. The move was denounced by international human rights organizations as racist, undemocratic and discriminatory. Israel uses racial profiling. Israel values Judaism above other religions. Israel should seek to be welcoming and inclusive and respect all religions, or even those with no religion. .
Israeli ethnocentric, chauvinism and xenophobic values are just too extreme. Israel does not share American values and let us therefore not share American taxpayer money with them and weapons so then we will not be hated so much by the world.

I agree with Sharon and would add that I think there is an 'Emperor's new clothes' atitude that happens where American liberal values and Israel meet. There is this desire to be supportive or to rationalize Israel because we know how it came to be that Jews needed a Jewish state. And I think we get being supportive of Jews as a people mixed up with supporting the very flawed government of Israel. However, just as can happen with human individuals who have been abused, Isreal has become an aduser in it's own right.
I've been on the fence about how to get us out of the Iraq thing because it's so complex, but I wonder what would happen if American money just ceased to go over the seas anymore to the Middle East? What if we the people just revolted and said 'no more' - I wonder what would happen if our money didn't trickle into so many weapons on all sides? I actually wish it were so because the resources could be redirected to fight disease in other parts of the world, to end the atrocities in Africa and to shore up our own defences and aid our own disenfranchised citizens.

Misanthropic Scott, I usually am in agreement with your observations, but think on this post you are using a manipulative device to one-up Frank. I've read over these posts and cannot find a place where he is saying that bombing children is okay. That's the kind of emotional button pushing that I would expect from the Rove Factory and not from you. No real snark and wih resepct.

Sorry I wasn't clear on that. I had pointed out that the tactics used by the Palestinian side were unacceptible regardless of the facts to which they object. Frank merely continued to assert that the fault was all on the side of Israel. His unconditional defense of the Palestinian terrorists, without acknowledging their part in this, despite my prior comment on the subject made me think he might actually think that this was an acceptible act on their part. I wanted confirmation that this was not the case. Now I have it.

Actually, I’m going to try to be even more clear on this. The point that I’m trying to make about this issue is this.

The world, including the UN, frequently condemns Israel’s actions. This is fine. But, when the UN and the rest of the world consistently condemn Israel and fail to condemn terrorists who target civilians, often very brutally, often children, it sends the message that terror is an effective and acceptable tool to get what you want.

The moral people of the world must stand together on this issue and denounce terrorism wherever, whenever, and under whatever circumstances it occurs. Frank’s comments prior to 03/08/07 at 12:24 PM failed to do so. I wanted to be sure that he actually felt that brutal acts of terrorism are wrong. Now I am sure.

I would also like to encourage people to speak about this side of the issue. Regardless of one’s faith, or lack thereof, regardless of which side anyone takes on a particular underlying issue, we must renounce terrorism for the cowardly and despicable act that it is. If something is worth fighting for, put on a uniform and attack a military target. War is vile, despicable, and part of our makeup that falls within our species warped idea of acceptable behavior. Terror is not.

Terror must be condemned regardless of which side engages in it and regardless of the people on the two sides. Whether it be Jews and Moslems, Moslems and Hindus, Catholics and Protestants, Christian fundamentalists and Doctors, etc, we must be vigilant in ensuring that we never give the appearance of acceptability to terrorist behavior.

That is the meme I’d like to propagate here, the idea that even if one agrees with the side that engages in terrorism, the use of terror must be condemned.

I think this is a good point, Misantrhopic Scott, and can only hope that more people share the level of your conviction here.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because my perceived enemy wrongfully kills my kin does not give me the moral justification to get down to his level and act like a barbarian. Enlighten people must hold a high standard of performance and not excuse a brother(in acting like a barbarian) because his perceived enemy acted like a barbarian. I think that we can be in solidarity in encouraging Israel to come into modern times in the field of civil rights. Israeli behavior should not be excused any more than we excuse American behavior. The whole world see the hypocrisy of some members of the left in this area. No justice, no peace.

Josh, I don't understand what you're saying and I can't figure out why I don't understand. How do you want this upheld - peacable protest or something else?

A pilgrimage to Israel last week by 27 Roman Catholic bishops from Germany was meant to be a historic symbol of reconciliation between Jews and German Catholics.

Instead, after two bishops drew a link between the plight of Palestinians in the West Bank and that of Jews in the Warsaw ghetto during World War II, it has become a fresh source of recrimination. This is an example of how the European left views the discrimination against the Palestinians. This is non violent action, courageously speaking out against injustice. This is an example of "liberation theology". I suggest that we read the European press more on the internet to see where the worldwide left is at.

Martin Luther King Quote: Without justice, there can be no peace. He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it.

As a passing visitor, I would like to add one point:

The western world, and particularly the left-of-center portion, seems to have reached a very bizarre and schizophrenic attitude about Jews and Israel.

On the one hand, it is regarded as the height of calumny to bring up the point that a great many of those that died in the concentration camps toward the end of the war died only because the Allies pretty much destroyed the rail and other transport systems and made it impossible to supply food or medicine to the camps -- not to suggest these were summer camps, but in some other research I read letters from commandants begging Berlin for transport, food and medicine for inmates in '44-45. This has little to do with overall responsibility, and I wouldn't suggest the Allies could have done otherwise, but even bringing up points like this has earned me the vilest of insults and accusations of holocaust-denial from seemingly normal people. Since I've got far more interesting work to do than put up with idiots, I don't bother anymore.

However, then we see a far more vicious and immoderate hatred and blood-oaths to wipe every Jew from the face of the earth, some stemming from groups with highly destructive weaponry (possibly nuclear, or close to it) -- and do we see anything like the same level of outrage and anger from those who regard any honest questioning of holocaust details as academic blasphemy? No. Europe's answer, especially, is to mostly condemn Israel at every opportunity and largely ignore Hitlerian psychopaths like Ahmadinejad, apparently hoping that the alligator will eat Israel first and not travel further.

I must admit that this seems like a rather perverse little philosophical dilemma to me, and if I were trying to defend it I'd be hard pressed.

Though I regard myself as a classical liberal, in recent decades I find myself voting more and more conservative or Libertarian since the groups that style themselves "liberal" seem to be a lot more authoritarian and confiscatory than in past times, reminding me more and more of what Stalin did to the original Russian revolution. And since I see the survival of Western civilization as being threatened again almost to the extent that it was by the Japanese and Germans in the late 30s, my leftist friends and colleagues will probably be very disappointed in my continued "conservative" voting patterns.