Dear God, We Really Are Going to War With Iran

Don't talk to God. He's the one who's telling Bush to bomb Iran. Well, he and Jesus, I mean Cheney.

You socialists (or progressives, or liberals, or leftists, or whatever you are calling yourselves this year) had better hope Dick “The Dick” Chaney does attack Iran. The Daddy Party’s approval rating has bottomed-out at 37%. When the election happens in 08, all the fascists need is 13% more. The fascist-middle-trash aren’t going to abandoned their Daddy unless things get REALLY bad. You can’t use “logic” and “facts” to convert ideologues (don’t forget, YOU GUYS still think big-government will solve all the world’s problems; just as soon as the “nice people” are running everything). So, this means, you risk losing UNLESS the Libertarians (the mean skeptical people) stop voting for the fascists (and, don’t forget, NO vote is like half a vote for you). As “many” Libertarians are white-middle-trash - who want to “get even” with “those people” – they vote Republican. If you socialists are lucky Dick “The Dick” Chaney will scare these Libertarians into not voting Republican; fear (and humiliation) are guaranteed to motivate humans.

As an alternative, you socialists could be figuring out how to fracture the Libertarians from the Fascists. You’ve got two natural conflicting ideological differences to exploit; “individual liberty” and “the imaginary friend”. As socialist are generally not too fond of “individual liberty”, that only leaves you “the imaginary friend”. I haven’t seen anything creative on this site in humiliating the fascists tho. It’s just the usually jabber about ideas and facts – which mean NOTHING to the ideologues or the mean people.

The above comment is pretty damn insulting to libertarians (such as myself) and socialists alike. Yes, we "jabber" about ideas and facts -- we have this peculiar feeling that maybe both ideas and facts are important. Forgive us for not being sufficiently realpolitick or fashionably postmodern (: p)

john, every post of yours i have read is the same condescending rant against everything. what IS your point? Or is it just on the top of your head. Get a life (or end yours, i don't care). You are tedious.

Logan & Rob, John is what in web parlance is known as "a troll". That's not in the sense of a short creature, living underground, but as one who "trolls", or moves through, trailing "bait" behind, to see what sort of "fish" will rise in irritation.

Notice how his posts usually contain something clearly designed to offend Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians and Greens, often naming them specifically, though often tossing in labels like Socialist or Fascist, to further irritate those he wishes to get a rise out of.

Trolls often operate from a fixed political position, working at irritating those who hold political opinions in opposition to their own.
John seems to enjoy the game of annoying any and all general political groupings that he's able to identify.

IF you rise to the bait and respond, then you're violating the cardinal messageboarding rule of "Don't Feed The Trolls".
Getting "fed" with irate responses is what keeps them coming back to the feeding-grounds to try for more.

Rob -

I agree.

"The debate has been accompanied by a growing drumbeat of allegations about Iranian meddling in Iraq from U.S. military officers."

Awww... That's too bad. You can dish it, but you can't take it? You made your bed, now deal with it.

From Wikipedia: "The United States implemented a policy of support for Saddam Hussein during the Iran-Iraq War as a counterbalance to post-revolutionary Iran. At various times, the support took the form of technological aid, intelligence, the sale of dual-use and military equipment, and direct involvement and warfare against Iran."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._support_for_Iraq_during_the_Iran-Iraq_war
_

Logan: “we have this peculiar feeling that maybe both ideas and facts are important”. Facts and ideas are ONLY useful when talking to people with a brain configured similarly to the person delivering the fact or idea. Jezz people, you’re 7 years into an administration that has done everything except nuke Iowa (as per the brilliant Tom Tomorrow comic) and you are still “discussing” facts?! How many “facts” are necessary for the middle-trash-fascists to stop loving Daddy? None. They don’t “love” their King because of “facts” anymore than Socialist love their “big-government” because of “facts”. It’s ideology. “Jethro” (in a different thread) cannot comprehend why anyone (especially – in his case - the ACLU) would not want the government to tap their phones. “What do you have to hide”, he questions. In his Daddy-based reality, he is right. So, “FACTS” about “government abuse” and “the intent of the founding fathers and King George” are POINTLESS. Jethro trusts Daddy. If Jethro is a “typical” Republican fascist he also “knows in his heart” that his imaginary-friend loves Daddy too. So, a mean skeptical Libertarian or a guilt-ridden skeptical Green aren’t going to convince Jethro to abandoned Daddy over wire-tapping and vote for Hilary! However, some of the white-middle-trash Republican voters that are ostensibly Libertarian (don’t trust big-government, vote Republican to get even with “those people” – basically: typical, mean “survival of the fittest” white-middle-trash), THESE people are worried about government infringing on their rights AND – in some cases – the roll of Bush’s imaginary-friend in government policy. But, in my experience (because, yes – I ACTUALLY have to deal with these middle-trash daily – so I ACTUALLY talk to them), they are NOT ready to vote for the socialists, YET. And, again, “facts” and “ideas” won’t get your average middle-trash-hater to vote Democratic. As nobody on here appears to even KNOW any Republican voting middle-trash fascists that is why “ideas” and “facts” appear to communicate information. You are all “preaching to the choir”, so to speak; you-all already “believe”. Elections and battles are lost because of “belief”.

Israel promotes NOT a vision of a inclusive "multi-cultural," "multi-ethnic" society (like we do in America) for Israel, but instead a racist exclusionary "Jewish state." That state is openly dedicated to the advancement of the Jewish religion, culture, and even the genetic preservation of the Jewish people. It vigorously opposes intermarriage of Jews with non-Jews. Israel even has a policy of segregated schools, neighborhoods, apartment complexes and even whole towns for Jews and non Jews. Israel values Judaism above other religions. Israel should seek to be welcoming and inclusive and respect all religions, or even those with no religion.
Israeli ethnocentric values are just too extreme. Israel does not share American values and let us therefore not share American taxpayer money with them. Israel needs to advance to the 21st century in its values. The days of racism should be a thing of the past. Israeli society is where America's society was 100 years ago. Israel can do better. Let us have that as our goal to advance Israel to the 21st century in the field of civil rights

Here again I see the blurring of race, religion and a national government, vis-a-vis Jews/Israel...

Is a Jew a human being from a unique and identifiable race?
Is a Jew a person of any specific race, or NO discernable race who follows a specific religion?
When we say "The Jews", are we speaking of all the citizens of the Nation of Israel? The GOVERNMENT of Israel? Or every person in the world who follows the Jewish religion?
Is Jewishness an ethnicity, distinct and separate from all others? Such that a Russian Jew would exhibit only Jewish ethnicity, and would be totally devoid of any Russian-ness, apart from, perhaps, language?

If a Jew is anyone who follows the Jewish religion (as one Jewish scholar assured me was the case) rather than a distinct and separate racial group, then how can there be any such thing as "the GENETIC preservation of the Jewish people"?
Old adolph sought the "genetic DESTRUCTION of the Jewish people", but I thought we'd thrown his mode of thinking about Jewishness on history's trash heap long ago. Maybe I was wrong.

Terms regarding Jews/Israelis/the Israeli Government seem to get tossed around interchangeably to the point that I often don't know which is being referred to in a given statement.

And as an additional FWIW question: My mother's maiden name is QUITE identifiably Hebrew.
Does that make me a Jew?

But Rachael, I agree.
Let's cut Israel off from the US Taxpayer Pipline. And while we're at it, let's cut off US Taxpayer funding of ALL foreign governments, as I've never found a statement in the US Constitution that empowers our government to fund the operations of foreign governments.
Have any of you?

While he may lack patience, John's central point speaks to the core of our problems. Belief is everything. If someone believes something, whether you know it or they know it, they will act on it, as will you. Conversely, something that you act on, whether you know it or not, is a belief. Some people would refer to that as determinism. It's my belief that neuroscience is closer to reality than psychology. I act on that, with a smattering of entropy and Heisenberg. Is that apropos to the topic? To me, of course. I believe it to be so. Get it? How many people in the world? 7 billion maybe? Some of them believe firmly in the PNAC theology. Want to get back at them? Work hard and save your money, stay healthy and spend your votes on things that count.

IMHO, John believes in trolling.
Therefore, he acts on that belief. ;^)

gvc,I agree with no taxpayer's money for foreign governments when we have so many problems at home. Less Empire, more country. When I say Jews, I only mean the white racists Jews. They know who they are. The little Jews(without power) get exploited as much as the goys. It is not the Jews fault that the goys like money so much and can be bribed for so little. Unfortunately, that is the state of morality in America. We are becoming like a third world country. Lock and load.

Currently there's only one carrier group in the Gulf, the Enterprise. There was actually a carrier-free week there just before it arrived, with the Stennis and Nimitz having left for exercises in the Pacific.

In October or November the Truman is scheduled to join the Enterprise, creating another period of heightened danger in late fall and winter.

There'll be at least two of those reports the Senate voted unanimously to receive on Iranian "meddling" before then. And the House voted this spring, with 100 Dems joining in, not to require the administration to get any authorization from Congress before a military strike.

The table's set.

Could be that the leaks about Cheney's proposals as either his faction trying to poison the (limited) negotiations now going on

If this war with Iran is/has started, I would like to hear some comments on the shift from nuclear to conventional. Not long ago, the US was touting the nuclear concerns, but that fizzled. The other issue is lawfulness of targeting. Once the US identifies targets in Iraq, those nuclear related targets need to be provided to the IAEA so they can be inspected. Yet, either the IAEA has no target list; or the inspected sites are not imminent nuclear threats. It looks as though the WH is targeting non-imminent threats. This is illegal.

How does the US -- on top of the problems in Afghanistan and Iraq -- plan to sustain combat operations in Iran; what is the trush? Some attempted to litigate to end the war in Iraq; is the same being attempted with Iran? Wars are not legalized on the basis of fraud or assertions. The same crew which has botched Afghanistan and Iraq cannot seriously believe they'll do better in Iran. We know today Iraq will take many years to stabilize; what's the timeline for Iran? Even if the US were to invade Iran, why would the Iranians act differently than the US after 9-11 and not unite? The assumptions of the flawed US invasion of Vietnam and Iraq have not been learned; we cannot expect those ignored lessons to be applied to Iran.

I like John. I think he is creative in getting across his point.

Anyone! Do you really want peace in the Middle East? A good start would be to stop the money and arms pipeline to the fanatic Jews. Find a proper size island in the middle of some ocean and make the island the new Jewish State. The US must keep out, due to poor reputation, and let the UN handle the details. Financing such a move would be a bargain compared to never ending disastrous wars in the Middle East. The names on the various towns on the island could be named the same as in Israel, similar to what the European and Brits did when settling in America.

Hey John if you spelled vice president Dick Cheneys (not Chaney) name correctly the people might just take you seriously one day.

Right Rachel. It's the horrible Israelis, the ones who hold elections, have legal opposition parties, have free newspapers, report protest demonstrations, have freedom of worship and multiple religious expression--that is a country which is so anti-thetical to our values. Duh!! You know nothing about the Middle East: the millet system from Ottoman times; confessional representation in Lebanon; the Saudis confiscating bibles and stars of david at airports; the persecution of minorities and gay people in Iraq and Iran. All the historic 2500 year old Jewish communities in the Arab/Persian world have been decimated, these people having lost everything and fled their "dhimmi" status. Palestinian gays flee their villages and try to get to Israel. Even people from Darfur are fleeing through Egypt and and arriving in Israel. But let's attack the Jews because among the 199 (lost count) member states of the UN, only the Jewish People should not be entitled to a country of their own where they are the majority. And why not: Because the Jews had it so good and were treated so well as minorities in Europe and the Arab/Muslim world. Whoppie for a progressive viewpoint!

Oh those horrible illiberal Jews:

New Jewish manual includes sex-change blessings

Halfway through a newly revised manual promoting inclusion for gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people in Judaism's Reform movement are two short blessings written by a rabbi who was raised Eliza and now goes by Elliot.

The prayers for Jews undergoing sex changes are included in the 500-page second edition of a guide called Kulanu, Hebrew for ''all of us,'' published this week by the New York-based Union for Reform Judaism.

''Here you have a Jewish person who is undergoing a very momentous aspect of their personal journey, and they will reach into their tradition to have this affirmed in the way we do it: through a blessing,'' said Rabbi Richard Address, an editor of the volume and director of the union's Department of Jewish Family Concerns. The union represents 900 Reform synagogues in North America.

The inclusion of the transgender blessings alongside a liturgy for same-sex union ceremonies and a divorce document for same-sex couples is in keeping with the Reform movement's tradition of liberal positions on human sexuality.

The largest branch of Judaism in North America, Reform Judaism allows gay and lesbian rabbis and cantors.

But Address said the blessings also illustrate a broader trend: an explosion in self-styled rituals and ceremonies written by people hungry to bring spiritual import to life's major events.

''They're saying, 'If the prayer book doesn't have one, I'm comfortable writing my own,''' he said.

That describes some of the transgender blessings in Kulanu. Two were written by Rabbi Elliot Kukla, who said he came out as a transgender male around the same time he was ordained last year at the Hebrew Union College–Jewish Institute of Religion. Kukla wrote the blessings for a friend about to start testosterone hormone therapy.

''It was a way of sanctifying the moment for him, and also signaling there is a place in Jewish tradition for all the different parts of our lives, including moments that are profound and maybe surrounded by stigma,'' he said.

Kukla's contributions are simple and short. ''Blessed are You, Eternal One, our God, Ruler of time and space, the Transforming One to those who transform/transition/cross over,'' one blessing says. Another reads, ''Blessed are You, Eternal One our God, Ruler of time and space, who has made me in God's image.''

The manual also suggests using a Jewish prayer traditionally recited to mark special events or notable firsts, according to the Jewish news agency JTA, which reported on the revision Wednesday. Address acknowledged conversations about whether the sex-change blessings would be viewed as offensive, but the decision was to ''to err on the side of inclusivity.'' (AP)

Also Rachel, a unitary state has worked so well in Iraq where Sunni dominance persecuted the Shiites and the Kurds, and now Shiite dominance has generated suicide bombers, ethnic cleansing and genocide, let's try it in Israel/Palestine. Ditto Iran where the Persian majority represses minority Azeris and Arabs. Ditto Turkey, where the Kurdish minority has such a wonderful time they are not even allowed to speak their own language. The Kurds--a people without a state except the mini-state they established in the north of Iraq, courtesy of the American invasion, and before that the American no-fly zone against Saddam. But no one seems to support American policy in support of this repressed people.
How about Sunni domination in Saudi Arabia of its Shiite 15% of the population, which is mirrored in the Gulf states? Nevermind all those situations: Let's just cut off the Israelis from advanced American weapons, so we can have a lot of dead Jews again. No thank you. We would rather have your bad opinion than you feeling sorry for us again.

i like john. although i see that he could possibly be a troll, i dont think so. he is sound in that we all have our points of view. these points of view are correct in our own minds, for our own reasons. most human beings make decisions based on their instinctual reaction, lessons learned through experience (what they are told), and context (meaning, their current reality). it takes a level of intelligence, or awareness, to think outside of your particular programs. if you get angry when someone calls you fat, you will always do so until you realize that either it doesnt matter what they think, or you arent actually fat. you will have to be aware of yourself, and your though processes to even think about being able to change your reaction to any situation. i think johns point is that although facts and ideas are important to "us", our well thought out ideas mean nothing to some one who is convinced they ARE thinking, and they too have it figured out. it is always healthy to consider this, least you become so certain about something you are no better than the 95%. john thinks we should accept this reality, and go about manipulating the "white trash facists" to change sides. it is acceptance of maybe straussian sp? theory that 95% of the population wants to be told what to do, 5% will find out for themselves. when a percentage of the 5% take power, they wipe out the remaining percentage who will be against them. cambodia and guatemala for example. kill everyone who can play chess. this administration is not playing. they have stated out loud their theories on expansion of executive power, the need to secure dominance on this planet (and in space), and their desire to take as much of the pie as possible for themselves. they are achieving this power by manipulation. fear is of course, the best manipulator of human behavour. i too sometimes feel that although these articles and message boards are great for my personal knowledge, i also remember that knowledge is power, and power is knowledge, or better said, if you have power, you create knowledge for others. this is what the elite are doing, is it time for us to counter, and how? finally, all of us need to admit our theoretical weaknesses. john is pointing out some truths about those of us who are interacting on the level of knowledge and ideas. i am a bit of all of these groups, green, socialist, libritarian. ideas and knowledge are confusing, because we only have a hypothesis about anything. and all of our theories have weaknesses. socialism surely does, as does capitalism and communism etc. sometimes you have to look at the alternative, and then use a bit of the overton window theory. if you see bush as unthinkable, maybe you can see give another reality that does not include destroying the constitution and raising our children in a dictatorship as more acceptable. even if their is a little socialism/green, uh, ism, and leave my dirtbikealoneism included.

Off topic repeatedly,name calling, baiting people...what a pointless waste of your intellect. Very disappointing to come in to what I thought was going to be one discussion and find that there was so much bickering that we never really hit the issue that brought us here to begin with.
So, just what did we learn here this session?

Nobel Peace Prize winner, Nelson Mandela’s 2001 letter to Thomas Freidman
Palestinians are not struggling for a "state" but for freedom, liberation and equality, just like we were struggling for freedom in South Africa.
Thomas, if you follow the polls in Israel for the last 30 or 40 years, you clearly find a vulgar racism that includes a third of the population who openly declare themselves to be racist. This racism is of the nature of "I hate Arabs" and "I wish Arabs would be dead". If you also follow the judicial system in Israel you will see there is discrimination against Palestinians, and if you further consider the 1967 occupied territories you will find there are already two judicial systems in operation that represent two different approaches to human life: one for Palestinian life and the other for Jewish life. Additionally there are two different approaches to property and to land. Palestinian property is not recognized as private property because it can be confiscated.
The Palestinian state cannot be the by-product of the Jewish state, just in order to keep the Jewish purity of Israel. Israel's racial discrimination is daily life of most Palestinians. Since Israel is a Jewish state, Israeli Jews are able to accrue special rights which non-Jews cannot do. Palestinian Arabs have no place in a "Jewish" state.
Apartheid is a crime against humanity. Israel has deprived millions of Palestinians of their liberty and property. It has perpetuated a system of gross racial discrimination and inequality. It has systematically incarcerated and tortured thousands of Palestinians, contrary to the rules of international law. It has, in particular, waged a war against a civilian population, in particular children.

Haven't Palestiniians waged a war against Israeli civilians, including children? Latasha: Why isn't the Ma'alot massacre factored into your statement where the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine seized a school near the Lebanese border and began executing children and throwing their bodies from the windows? What about other massacres of women, children blown to bits on buses, body parts everywhere?? All over the Middle East, there are Muslim states. Islam has a special status in these countries. There are few if any Jews in these countries, because they all fled or were driven out, losing their homes, businesses, etc. Most are these people are now living in Israel. But let me not confuse you with facts. In all the areas where the Arab forces prevailed in the 1948 war, the Jews were driven out. This included the historic Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem & the Etzion Bloc of Jewish villages near Bethleham. Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot. The Jews are not allowed to win. We are supposed to lose & be murdered, so everyone can then pity us.

it's the Middle East, not the Middle West.

Palestinians owed 94% of the land(1948) when the Jews declared their racist country. The Jews did ethnic cleansing and drove most of the Palestinians away by killing their babies and mothers in their villages in acts of terror. This is what we expect of a racist country. The Palestinians are merely fighting for liberty like the Nobel Peace Prize winner states. "White Jewish racists" were also dominant in the slave trade. But that is another subject that I will save for February.

How hypocritical it is for some Jews to promote in the Islamic World books that are deeply offensive to Muslims, such as Salman Rushdie’s Satianic Verses, and to seek to ban Christmas carols from American public schools, yet they seek support for the exclusively Jewish religion(Israel) by American tax payers. They campaign to open America’s borders to the Third World while working to send taxpayer’s money to a nation(Israel) that denies immigration to non Jews, denying return even to those who were born there and whose families lived there for generations.

Right Latasha: White Jewish racists controlled the slave trade. That's why most Black families in America are named Epstein and are Jewish. Duh?? Was our control over the slave trade before or after we were expelled from England, France & so many other European countries? And all those Jewish Freedom Riders, and Goodman & Schwerner murdered along with Chaney--let's sweep the inconvenient facts under the rug. The Big Lie is so much easier to swallow than messy facts which contradict the conclusions you start out with. Further, I Shahak, it seems to me that a lot people in the West object to fatwas against writers. Check the PEN website. Why is it that multiculturalism works only one way? All the immigrants coming West to the Americas and Europe from the Muslim world are free to practice their religion here. In Israel, Muslims and Christians can practice their religion there. But how many Jews, Christians, Hindus, whatever would be allowed to practice their religion and build churches, temples, synagogues in S. Arabia, Pakistan, Iran--all of them self-described Islamic kingdoms or republics. As for Israel's Law of Return, it might change in the future, but its formation in 1948 was to deal with the fact that Jews were trapped in Nazi Europe and could not get out. Google the St. Louis--a ship which sailed up and down the East Coast of the US with Jewish refugees, and entry was denied, & the ship sailed back to Europe & most of the passengers were subsequently murdered in the camps. But of course we Jews are sending all the jobs to the 3rd World. Gosh we are powerful. It's so reassuring, and here I thought my worries were just Jewish paranoia. Plus we are sending the taxpayer's money to Israel. I guess we had nothing to do with making any of that money or wealth--not in Hollywood, retail, finance, the arts, real estate, the professions, tv, medicine. I guess we have no right to vote, raise money for candidates, call our legislators, and enter the public sphere for our concerns. Everyone else has that right but not us. There is a word for that but I can't remember what it is.

Alan, the Jews certainly do have the right to be racists and mini me nazis in their practices in Israel(e.g. no intermarriage with Gentiles, like the Nuremberg laws). I believe that these "white racist Jews" certainly have the right to be racists like the Nazi's and the old government in South Africa and make fools of themselves and others. Just because "everybody else" is a racist, is that an excuse to be one too?

One more thing Latasha: If Israel is a racist country, why did they bring in Black Jews from Ethiopia? Why are Africans from Darfur, Sudan (Muslim ethnic cleansing) risking their lives to cross the Israeli/Egyptian border in the Sinai to get to Israel? What about the ethnic cleansing in Rwanda, Bosnia, India/Pakistan, Iraq (Shiite vs Sunni, Sunni vs Kurds under Saddam, the Marsh Arabs) and the USA (native Americans)? Oh I forgot, it's just the Jews and those nasty evil racist Israelis. There is a words for that, but I can't remember what it is.

The following passages are from Rabbi Raphael's book Jews and Judaism in the United States ), pp. 14, 23-25.
"Jews also took an active part in the Dutch colonial slave trade; indeed, the bylaws of the Recife and Mauricia congregations (1648) included an imposta (Jewish tax) of five soldos for each Negro slave a Brazilian Jew purchased from the West Indies Company. Slave auctions were postponed if they fell on a Jewish holiday. In Curacao in the seventeenth century, as well as in the British colonies of Barbados and Jamaica in the eighteenth century, Jewish merchants played a major role in the slave trade. In fact, in all the American colonies, whether French (Martinique), British, or Dutch, Jewish merchants frequently dominated." AfroAmericans demand reparations from the Jews and Israel.

"This was no less true on the North American mainland, where during the eighteenth century Jews participated in the 'triangular trade' that brought slaves from Africa to the West Indies and there exchanged them for molasses, which in turn was taken to New England and converted into rum for sale in Africa. Isaac Da Costa of Charleston in the 1750's, David Franks of Philadelphia in the 1760's, and Aaron Lopez of Newport in the late 1760's and early 1770's dominated Jewish slave trading on the American continent."

Dr.Marc Lee Raphael discusses the central role of the Jews in the New World commerce and the African slave trade (pp. 23-25) "Jews and Judaism in the United States"

AfroAmericans demand reparations from the Jews and Israel.

Latasha, there is no civil marriage in Israel. In a political deal in 1948, the orthodox establishment was given control of marriage. Not a good move in my opinion. People in Israel from mixed marriages fly to Cyprus to get married and fly back. In Israel, the Muslim establishment controls Muslim marriage, the Christian churches control theirs, the Bahai...etc. It is the confessional system or millet system which dates from the Ottoman Empire. But you are not quite right on Judaism and marriage. It's a mixed bag with the Reform and Reconstructionist movements not the same as the Orthodox, Haredi or Conservative. Why do you single out the Jews on marriage. The Catholics don't permit inter-marriage without a special dispensation. The Islamic countries also have a very complex situation on marriage. You just made me google all this stuff. Look at Wilkepedia on Interreligious Marriage. Google intermarraige and the Muslim World. I know that I have a Jewish Problem. I am fascinated by Judaism and obsessively read about Israel. But I think you might have a Jewish Problem too, like I Shahak, and I think there might be a word for your problem, but I can't remember what it is.

On Jews and the slave trade: So no Christians were involved in the slave trade, no Muslims, and no Africans selling those captured in wars or raids? It's just those evil Jews. I remember Black Muslims contending that Jews owned 90% of the slaves in the south. Gee, Alabama in 1860 must have been a carbon copy of sections of Bklyn and the Bronx in 1948. If you want reparations from the Jews and Israel, that means that you recognize that the Jews are a people and Israel today is the homeland of the Jews. So if we are a people, why can't we have a homeland like all the other groups on the planet? Zionism is the national liberation movement of the Jewish People.

http://static.jpost.com/images/2007/pdf/oldcovers/1948.1605.pdf

Sephardic Jews are an underclass in Israel and are even referred to by too many Ashkenazi Jews as "niggers." Ben-Gurion oversaw a project in 1952 to take care of the Sephardic problem. Israel was founded by Europeans(Ashkenazi) and they treated the true Jews(Sephardic) like the Southerners treated the former slaves in 1880s in America. The Ashkenazi's learn well from their former European masters on how to treat an underclass.

You are right Benjamim that the Sephardic are the true Jews. Jack Bernstein, author of The Life Of An American Jew in Racist Marxist Israel explains:

"At the eastern edge of Europe, there lived a tribe of people know as the Khazars. About the year 740 A.D., the Khazar king and his court decided they should adopt a religion for their people. So, representatives of the three major religions, Christianity, Islam and Judaism, were invited to present their religious doctrines. The Khazars chose Judaism, but it wasn't for religious reasons. If the Khazars had chosen Islam they would have angered the strong Christian world. If they had chosen Christianity they would have angered the strong Islamic world. So they played it safe--they chose Judaism, not for religious reasons but for political ones.

Sometime during the 13th century, the Khazars were driven from their land and they migrated westward with most of them settling in Poland and Russia. These Khazars are now known as Ashkenazi Jews. Because these Khazar Ashkenazi Jews merely chose Judaism, they are not really Jews, at least not blood Jews.

Throughout their history, these Polish and Russian Ashkenazi Jews practiced communism/socialism and worked to have their ideas implemented in these countries.

By the late 1800s significant numbers of these communist/socialist Jews were found in Gemany, the Balkans and eventually all over Europe. Because of their interference in the social and governmental affairs of Russia, they became the target of persecution by the Czars. Because of this, migration of these communist/socialist oriented Jews began. Some went to Palestine; some to Central and South America; and a large number of them came to the U.S."

"AfroAmericans demand reparations from the Jews and Israel."

Ummmm.., Latasha, does it make sense to you to demand that a Nation which didn't exist at the time your ancestors were, presumably, slaves in the US, and people who wouldn't be born until 100 years or more after slavery ended here, make payments to you?

I assume there would be some proof required that the person receiving payments had ancestors who WERE slaves, in order to qualify? Otherwise, how is the slavery of someone ELSE'S ancestors, 140+ years ago a significant issue in their lives?

And assuming we limit payments to those families who can proove to have ancestors who suffered harm at the hands of slaveholders and slave traders, doesn't it also make sense to limit the payORS to just those descendants of proven slave TRADERS and slaveHOLDERS? Or, do we (as you obviously advocate), in order to vastly increase the size of the payments and the pool of recipients, demand that ALL Jews around the world, and probably ALL "white" Americans (whether they ever had a southern ancestor, slaveholder or no..) chip in to the big "Gimme" fund, to be paid to anyone who can pass some arbitrary "blackness" test (even though such recipients may never have had an ancestor who even lived in a slaveholding State)?

But go ahead. Demand away.
And maybe I'll support demanding From YOU, reparations on behalf of my Chocktaw, Chickasaw and Cherokee ancestors, who were all robbed of their homeland in spite of signed treaties that forbade such. If YOU don't have ancestors you can prove were subjected to the "Removal", then you're an American who should be sending me a check..., eh?

How 'bout if Jews all over the world demand reparations from the Egyptians?
I mean after all..., if it's fair for YOU..?

"...my ancient ancestors, the Hebrews, were in fact held as slaves of the Egyptions; a group of people often said by blacks to have been black Africans. Hmm...I guess in that case, all Jews should also be entitled to reparations from blacks. And since this event happened some three thousand years ago, well the interest on the money owed is going to be murder.
...while the blacks in America served only "two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil," to quote Lincoln's Second Inaugural, the Hebrew slaves in black Egypt served 400 years!"
Source: http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/002074.html

"Reparations" my big beige butt!

I'll just spend my energies on seeing what I can achieve for my Own FUTURE, and that of my descendants, and not waste my time trying to get somebody to pay me for the misfortunes of Somebody ELSE'S Past.... thankyouverymuch.

"...significant numbers of these communist/socialist Jews were found in Gemany, the Balkans and eventually all over Europe. Because of their interference in the social and governmental affairs of Russia, they became the target of persecution by the Czars."

This is interesting phrasing, Amzalak.

Makes one wonder if Communist/Socialist NON-Jews who were Russian citizens also, were "INTERFERING in the social and governmental affairs of Russia", or did they have a RIGHT to try and persuade Russians to adopt Communism and overthrow the regency, where Russians who were also Jews, did NOT?

Thanks for making me laugh gvc.
But, seriously now, 800,000 Jews left their historic communities in the Arab world for Israel. 250,000 from Morocco, 150,000 from Iraq, not sure of the number from Yemen. The Likud got elected with the votes of these Sephardic Jews. Israel is the reverse of W. Europe: In Israel the economic upper classes (European Askanazim) (Latasha: Askenaz is the Hebrew for Germany)vote for the left-wing parties and the economic lower classes (Sephardim--the Hebrew word for Spain--Sepharad) vote right-wing. Go figure. What color are the Sephardim? They sure are darker than the Askenazim, but lighter than the Ethiopians? Who cares? The Ethiopian restaurants in Jerusalem serve great food. There is nothing quite as fascinating to me as Israel, with Jews from all over the world who created a new country.
By the way, I start Arabic in the fall & continue with my Hebrew. Keeps the mind alive.

And speaking of Africans, did everyone see this 10 days back?

Aug. 2, 2007 20:37 | Updated Aug. 3, 2007 11:43
'Egyptians killed 4 Sudanese on border'
By JPOST.COM STAFF
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Egyptian soldiers killed four Sudanese refugees near the Egypt-Israel border overnight Wednesday in full view of IDF troops, a shaken-sounding IDF soldier said in an interview with Channel 10, Thursday evening.

According to the soldier, female IDF troops operating night vision devices identified several refugees approaching the border in an attempt to infiltrate Israel and alerted other soldiers who arrived after a few minutes in an army jeep.

However, Egyptian troops who also discovered the refugees, fired upon them, immediately killing two and wounding a third. A fourth refugee ran towards the fence and an IDF soldier stretched out his hands, trying to help him cross.

At that point, the soldier recalled, two Egyptian soldiers arrived and started pulling at the refugee's legs.

"It was literally like we were playing 'tug of war' with this man," the soldier said. The soldier eventually loosened his grip on the man, fearing the Egyptians would shoot him.

"They were aiming loaded weapons straight at us, I was afraid they were going to shoot us," he said.

The Egyptians then carried the man several meters away from the border fence, and proceeded to beat him and another wounded refugee to death with stones and clubs.

"What happened there yesterday was a lynch. These are not men, they're animals. They killed him without even using firearms," the soldier said. "We just heard screams of pain and the sounds of beatings. Then the screams stopped."

The entire event was caught on IDF tapes, but the soldier said that his commanders, who were not at the site, would not dare watch them.

The entire incident took place on the Egyptian side of the border, IDF sources told Israel Radio later Thursday evening.

A Channel 10 commentator said the channel preferred not to show the tape, so as not to cause a diplomatic row with Egypt.

Egyptian authorities said that they would investigate the incident.Print Subscribe
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Latasha: How about this for a white racist country?

Subscribe to Print Edition | Wed., August 08, 2007 Av 24, 5767 | | Israel Time: 18:40 (EST+7)






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Last update - 17:00 03/08/2007


MKs oppose the deportation of Darfur refugees back to Egypt

By Mijal Grinberg, Haaretz Correspondent, and The Associated Press

Dozens of legislators from across the political spectrum have urged the government to refrain from deporting to Egypt Sudanese refugees who enter Israel through the Sinai Peninsula.

Channel 10 reported Thursday on Israeli soldiers who said they had witnessed Egyptian security officers executing several refugees.

"The refugees need protection and sanctuary, and the Jewish people's history as well as the values of democracy and humanity pose a moral imperative for us to give them that shelter," the MKs said in a petition.

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The document has been signed by 63 MKs including Likud Chairman Benjamin Netanyahu, Labor's Amir Peretz, Hadash's Dov Khenin and the National Religious Party's Effi Eitam.

The legislators propose to keep the refugees here until they are transferred to a safe haven abroad. MKs who signed the petition added suggestions such as building a high fence along the Egyptian border and stipulating quotas for the absorption of refugees.

The petition against deporting Sudanese asylum-seekers back to Egypt is the initiative of a group of students from Jerusalem and Ben Gurion University in Be'er Sheva.

Many of the students first encountered the refugees up close in the capital. The Sudanese refugees were housed there in tents after they had entered Israel through Egypt, after escaping the genocide in the Western Sudan region of Darfur.

In conversations with refugees, the students became convinced that deportation to Egypt was tantamount to a death sentence.

"Our student group was concerned with raising the public's awareness to the refugees' plight," activist Na'ama Katz said. "When they arrived in Wohl Rose Park in Jerusalem, we got a chance to actually see what shape they were in. We began gathering testimonies and interviewing them. They told us they had been persecuted in Egypt, and we understood what going back there meant for them."

According to Katz, many of the refugees told the students that they had suffered persecution and physical abuse in Egypt. One of them who wished to remain anonymous told Haaretz that at some point during his stay in Egypt, he and his family were afraid to leave home for fear of being beaten.

"After Sudanese refugees took to demonstrating in Egypt in 2005, it was no longer safe for us to go out on the street. We couldn't go to the police because they were part of it. The Egyptian police joined in on harassing us refugees," he said.

According to an inter-ministerial committee on refugees crossing into Israel from Sinai, about 1,400 are currently in Israel. The committee was headed by Interior Minister Roni Bar-On.

In talks last month on the African refugees, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said that any refugee caught crossing into Israel from Egypt would be returned to that country through an official crossing. Olmert said the matter had been finalized in discussions with Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak.

Egyptian soldiers murder Sudanese refugees near border with Israel

Egyptian soldiers murdered three Sudanese refugees, beating two to death in front of horrified Israel Defense Forces soldiers, Channel 10 television reported Thursday, screening what it said was army surveillance video and interviews with the soldiers.

Egyptian police told The Associated Press that authorities arrested two Sudanese refugees Thursday, seriously injuring one when he scuffled with police. But Egyptian police Captian Mohammed Badr did not report any deaths.

Channel 10 TV said the incident happened late Wednesday night. The refugees are seen running toward the Israeli border in the video. Then, according to one of the soldiers, who was not identified and whose voice was distorted, Egyptian soldiers opened fire, killing one and wounding the other.

The third tried to climb the border fence but was tackled by Egyptian soldiers, the TV report said.

IDF soldiers were sent to the scene to try to help the refugees, and at one point they got into a tug-of-war with the Egyptians, each side holding on to the Sudanese.

"We pulled one way they pulled another, they pointed their guns at us," said one of the soldiers. He said they let go for fear that the Egyptians would fire at them.

Then the IDF soldiers said they watched helplessly as the Egyptians passed the two refugees from one to the other, beating them. "We saw them gang up on them and beat them on the ground until they stopped moving, said one of the men identified as a soldier.

"They killed two men with their own hands and sticks and rocks," he said. "We heard them crying and screeching in pain until they died."

The IDF said it was looking into the incident. There was no confirmation from Egypt of any refugees being killed.

Hundreds of Sudanese refugees, many from the war-wracked Darfur region, have crossed the desert border from Egypt into Israel in recent months.

Last month, Egyptian border guards shot and killed a Sudanese woman and wounded four others. She was the first Sudanese refugee to be killed.






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Ummm.., Latasha, I'd also like to review some quotes from your Rabbi Raphael book:
"Jews also took an active part in the DUTCH colonial slave trade.."

The DUTCH colonial slave trade?!?!

So why are we not aiming our Reparations demands at Holland, rather than one particular group who "took part" in the DUTCH endeavor?

Could it be..., RACISM?!?!
ANTISEMITISM?!?!

Also: "...the bylaws of the Recife and Mauricia congregations (1648) included an imposta (Jewish tax) of five soldos for each Negro slave a Brazilian Jew purchased from the West Indies Company"

Hmmm..., JEWS had to pay a tax for purchasing slaves that NON-Jewish BRAZILIANS were not required to pay.
Yeah, sounds very much like THE JEWS were holding the reins and making the rules vis-a-vis the slave trade!
THEY'RE the ones who were holding ALL the Cards, OBVIOUSLY! No need to demand money from the descendants of slaveholding NON-Jewish Brazilians, just because they got to buy Their slaves tax-free!

"Slave auctions were postponed if they fell on a Jewish holiday."

No doubt they held slave auctions on Christmas and Easter though... It was just The JEWS who were being favored this way.

"..in the BRITISH colonies of Barbados and Jamaica in the eighteenth century, Jewish merchants played a major role in the slave trade."

But of course, the BRITISH were Helpless as far as controlling what went on in THEIR Barbados and Jamaican colonies, so only the participating JEWS need be blamed, and the descendants of EVERY Jew ("participating" or not) must be made to pay Reparations. Fair is Fair, and Justice is Justice after all. (adolph would have loved that logic)

Alan:
It's always my hope, and my pleasure, to locate the ludicrous, observe the absurd, and make someone chuckle by highlighting it.

You all who are decendents of the EuroAmericans and Jews and etc. owe my people reparations. Pay up. Don't insult me by saying that you already paid it in welfare. Is Senator Clinton Black enough? No, only Obama understands and he will get us what we deserve.

All Americans who are not descendants of The Five Civilized Tribes are still benefitting from their unjust, illegal and unconstitutional removal from their homelands under the 1830 "Removal Act".
You owe my people! (Especially ME)
Pay Up! And Latasha, don't insult me by saying blacks haven't benefitted from my ancestors being driven from their homes. Many blacks are LIVING on our ancestral homelands at this very moment.
You first, Latasha! Send me my check!
Then you can send me the check (a REALLY BIG one) that you owe me for your black Egyptian ancestors keeping my Jewish ancestors as slaves for 400 years!
THEN we'll talk about European Americans, Jews and the descendents of slaves after I've got the money that you rightfully owe me.
Your people are GUILTY of oppressing my ancestors, and still benefitting from the injustices against them! Admit It!! We DESERVE to be compensated for our genetic makeup!

If you can't admit that you OWE me for these atrocities committed against my ancestors, going well back into history before The New World & it's slave trade were even dreamed of, then you can smooch my big ol' beige butt.

Or would you rather try and tackle all the points and questions posed in the previous lot of posts regarding your "Pay Me" demand?

Latasha: I wouldn't insult you with a welfare remark, since we know that corporate welfare is so much higher than the pittance that was given to African Americans. African Americans helped to create the wealth of this country and the Jewish Prophets tell us: "Justice, Justice shalt thou pursue." Where can I send my check? Do I get any credit for all those checks sent to the United Negro College Fund? Do we get any credit for all those Jewish communists, socialists, anarchists, union movement people, the old Left, the New Left, the union movement, the civil rights movement who tried to make a better world for everyone. I guess not. We will just send a check and then it's over. Account settled. Paid in full. But right now in my city, young black men are shooting and killing each other with a frequency that is chilling and horrible and no ones seems to know what to do to stop the killing. Will those checks stop this bloodbath?
As for Sen Obama, if this is such a racist country, how can he possibly win?
Glad we could all contribute to the discussion of America's Iran policy which is where this blog started.

speaking of which:

This means that nuclear technology states must be just as energetic in promoting the resolution of these conflicts as they are in promoting their products. It means building the unity of the United States, Europe, Russia and the regional states to effectively contain the Iranian program.

Finally, it means that engaging with Tehran is even more crucial to halt not only the Iranian nuclear program, but those that will soon start to materialize around it.

Joseph Cirincione is director for nuclear policy at the Center for American Progress and the author of "Bomb Scare: The History and Future of Nuclear Weapons." Uri Leventer is a graduate student at the Harvard University John F. Kennedy School of Government.

sorry, page 2 printed before page 1

RECIPE FOR WAR
The Middle East's nuclear surge
By Joseph Cirincione and Uri Leventer Published: August 13, 2007

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WASHINGTON:

Iran is still probably five to 10 years away from gaining the ability to make nuclear fuel or nuclear bombs. But its program is already sending nuclear ripples through the Middle East. The race to match Iran's capabilities has begun.

Almost a dozen Muslim nations have declared their interest in nuclear energy programs in the past year. This unprecedented demand for nuclear programs is all the more disturbing paired with the unseemly rush of nuclear salesman eager to supply the coveted technology.

While U.S. officials were reaching a new nuclear agreement with India last month, President Nicolas Sarkozy of France signed a nuclear cooperation deal with Libya and agreed to help the United Arab Emirates launch its own civilian nuclear program. Indicating that this could be just the beginning of a major sale and supply effort, Sarkozy declared that the West should trust Arab states with nuclear technology.

Sarkozy has a point: No one can deny Arab states access to nuclear technology, especially as they are acquiring it under existing international rules and agreeing to the inspection of International Atomic Energy Agency officials. But is this really about meeting demands for electric power and desalinization plants?

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There is only one nuclear power reactor in the entire Middle East - the one under construction in Busher, Iran. In all of Africa there are only two, both in South Africa. (Israel has a research reactor near Dimona, as do several other states.) Suddenly, after multiple energy crises over the 60 years of the nuclear age, these countries that control over one-fourth of the world's oil supplies are investing in nuclear power programs. This is not about energy; it is a nuclear hedge against Iran.

King Adbdullah of Jordan admitted as much in a January 2007 interview when he said: "The rules have changed on the nuclear subject throughout the whole region. . . . After this summer everybody's going for nuclear programs." He was referring to the war in Lebanon last year between Israel and Hezbollah, perceived in the region as evidence of Iran's growing clout. Other leaders are not as frank in public, but confide similar sentiments in private conversations.

Here is where the nuclear surge currently stands. Egypt and Turkey, two of Iran's main rivals, are in the lead. Both have flirted with nuclear weapons programs in the past and both have announced ambitious plans for the construction of new power reactors. Gamal Mubarak, son of the current Egyptian president and his likely successor, says the country will build four power reactors, with the first to be completed within the next 10 years. Turkey will build three new reactors, with the first beginning later this year.

Not to be outdone, Saudi Arabia and the five other members of the Gulf Cooperation Council (Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, and the United Arab Emirates) at the end of 2006 "commissioned a joint study on the use of nuclear technology for peaceful purposes." Algeria and Russia quickly signed an agreement on nuclear development in January 2007, with France, South Korea, China, and the United States also jockeying for nuclear sales to this oil state. Jordan announced that it, too, wants nuclear power. King Abdullah met Canada's prime minister in July and discussed the purchase of heavy water Candu reactors. Morocco wants assistance from the atomic energy agency to acquire nuclear technology and in March sponsored an international conference on Physics and Technology of Nuclear Reactors.

Finally, the Arab League has provided an overall umbrella for these initiatives when, at the end of its summit meeting in March, it "called on the Arab states to expand the use of peaceful nuclear technology in all domains serving continuous development."

Perhaps these states are truly motivated to join the "nuclear renaissance" promoted by the nuclear power industry and a desire to counter global warming. But the main message to the West from these moderate Arab and Muslim leaders is political, not industrial. "We can't trust you," they are saying, "You are failing to contain Iran and we need to prepare." It is not too late to prove them wrong.

Instead of seeing this nuclear surge as a new market, the countries with nuclear technology to sell have a moral and strategic obligation to ensure that their business does not result in the Middle East going from a region with one nuclear weapon state - Israel - to one with three, four, or five nuclear nations.

If the existing territorial, ethnic, and political disputes continue unresolved, this is a recipe for nuclear war.

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“Temperament lies behind mood; behind will, lies the fate of character. Then behind both, the influence of family the tyranny of culture; and finally the power of climate and environment; and we are free, only to the extent we rise above these.”
Rise above, people. Rise above.

The head of the International Atomic Energy Agency has urged Israel to sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and surrender its hundreds of nuclear weapons in order to further peace in the Middle East. Israel has nuclear power reactors as well. The world must disarm Israel, by force if necessary. Israel got their nukes through deception and spys. Other Middle Eastern countries feel threatened by the presence of hundreds of Israeli nuclear bombs. Iran is only reacting to the nuclear terrorism of Israel. Let us support all middle eastern countries in their right to react to Israeli crimes.

Right, Iran has certainly reassured Israel that it has nothing to fear. All that "wipe Israel off the map" and holocaust denial conferences are very reassuring. Is Iran serious or is Ahmadinejad covering his Shiite rising with rhetoric that appeals to the Sunni street in the Arab world?

Question: If you were an Israeli and you knew that 2 nukes would destroy your New Jersey-sided country, as well as your family, would you give up the nukes?

Given Jewish history, do you think that Israel will wait? I think we have to take Ahmadinejad at his word. No one believed Hitler either because it was all too lunatic. Hitler had 2 war aims: Kill all the Jews; conquer Europe. The Germans even delayed their ammo and troop transports to front because the death trains had priority.

Maybe the world has to preempt Iran before it gets nukes? Maybe deterrence won't work with crazies who want to kill you and go to paradise at the same time.

These are very dangerous times. In a world of multiple nuclear powers, uncertainty is multiplied and everyone in the Mideast will be edgy, on hair trigger.

Don't bring your European problems to the middle east. It is clear that Israel was the first nuclear terrorist in the middle east. The whole world says that they must be stopped. Once Israel gets rid of its nukes, there will be no need for Iran or the Arabs to have nukes. Pakistan only has 20. Israel having 200 is pure terrorism. The Talmud says the most outrageous things about non Jews. It is a very dangerous book that should be banned since it is the core of the Zionist state's insanity.

Karoosh: You certainly are a Talmud scholar. Duh! Doesn't the Holy Quran say atrocious things about non-Muslims? Would you want it banned? I've always thought that the Hebrew Bible was the basis for Israel and Zionism the national liberation movement of the Jewish People. But no one in the Middle East is terribly honest about their Jewish people or where all their Jews went, which was to Israel. The Jews voted with their feet. (I think the Arab world is also voting with their feet, or you wouldn't have large Arab communities all over Europe and America. Why is o.k. for Arab/Muslim peoples to move to Europe or America in such numbers that they impact the political balance in those countries, but not ok for Jews or anyone else to do the same?) In years of reading English editions of the Beruit Daily Star, I saw one opinion piece which called on the Arab world to deal honestly with the history of the region's Jews. Didn't you really have a population exchange in Israel/Palestine? The Jewish communities stretching from Morocco to Iran/Afghanistan left those areas for Israel and replaced the Arab population of Palestine. The early Jewish population movement to Israel came from Europe, the latter from the Arab/Persian lands. Was it fair to the local community, to the Palestinian Arabs? No. History does not seem to play fair.
China, India, Vietnam, Malaya, South Korea--all those countries suffered from Western colonialism, war, despotism, chaos. They moved on. They adopted the best of the West and
today are economic powerhouses; some of them are democracies. What is it that keeps the Arab world from doing the same, even with their vast oil wealth? New Jersey-sized Israel? PLEEEEZ MISTER.

Alan dear, the Torah is the Hebrew Bible(books of Moses), not the Talmud. The Talmud is Rabbinical writings. In Rabbinical Judaism, the Talmud is equal in authority. The Tanakh is what a Christian would refer to as the Old Testament, but usually, just the Torah is used. Alan, you need to go back to Hebrew School. Don't embarrass your mother.

Thanks, Rebi Rebecca. Tanakh. An acronymn for Torah, Neviim (prophets), che (kh)tuvim (writings). And the Talmud has the Mishnah and the Gemara.
But my late mother knew nothing of Talmud. She was part of the generation that abandonned formal religion because that was the old country and now they were Americans. My mom was born in 1910 in a village near Odessa, Ukraine, immigrated to Philadelphia with her parents in 1911, was orphaned in 1927 when both parents died in a house fire. Mom and her older sister next lived with relatives in Chicago, then moved to NYC. They never finished high school but they had to make their way in the world. My mom loved to read the newspapers. She always rooted for the underdog. My dad's folks came from Bobrusk, Byelorussia, in the Pale of Settlement. They immigrated to the US in 1913, before the borders were shut by 1914 and the postwar US immigration laws were tightened to exclude people from Eastern and Southern Europe. If they hadn't come when they did, perhaps they would have been murdered in WW1 carnage, the Russian Civil War, Stalin's purges, Hitler's bloodbath. I guess I'm lucky.
Mom & Dad worked 6 days a week in a millinery store selling women's hats. All 3 kids worked there at the Christmas and Easter rush. Mom and Dad made sure that all 3 kids went to college. Oh those evil domineering Jewish families who push their kids to get an education! What a plot against the world!

From the pictures, since I never knew him, my grandfather on my mom's side looks like Stalin. I remember my mother telling me he worked in a shipyard in Phila and had to pay off the supervisor because he was a Jew and couldn't have kept his job otherwise. My dad had to fight his way out of school in East Harlem (then a Jewish & Italian neighborhood). He made friends with 2 of the roughest kids in school. Is that Israeli policy today when you live in a bad neighborhood?

One more thing: my mom worked at the Waldorf Astoria Hotel in NYC as a comtometer operator. She always received letters of commendation from the management for bringing business to the hotel. She saved those letters. No one there knew she was Jewish & mom did not publicize her background. It was the Depression and she was lucky to have a job. One day in the 1930's, mom came into the office and found one of her colleagues mimeographing a leaflet saying "DON'T BUY FROM THE JEWS." The German-American Bund was at work.

My dad looked very Jewish. So on their honeymoon, when they drove thru upstate NYC to Montreal, dad would stay in the car and mom would into the hotel to get a room, because they didn't rent rooms to Jews back then. Nothing remotely as severe at what black people went thru or a host of other people, but it is hard to imagine the world in which they became adults.

Alan, I am sorry but I don't care about "yo momma" or your childhood. Just vote for Obama and he will give us what we are due because he is "Black" enough. President Clinton was the first "Black President", but Obama is the real deal. Now let us all move on to some other post. We have had enough.

That's lovely Latasha.
You don't care about anyone else's Mama, what forms of racism someone else's Mama & Papa may have suffered, but you ask us to determine how we vote based on who will work to have YOU paid cash-money for what happened to your Great-G-G-GrandMama?

The attitude you portray in many of your postings here seems almost a caricature of an American woman of African ancestry, with inflammatory content aimed to incite anger and opposition.
Dare I say it..? (of course I do) IMHO, it smacks of "Troll", and consequently renders all your postings suspect.

...and, oh, by the way...
Just so we're all clear on his position:

2004
"Obama said Monday he did not support reparations. Instead, he said he favored "investments" that would benefit all Americans who are struggling. "Things like early childhood education, job training, college scholarships, provide opportunity to all people," Obama said. "I'm just in favor of investments for people in need and struggling."
http://austinmayor.blogspot.com/2004_08_01_archive.html

2008
"Senator Obama, you're position of reparations?"

BARACK OBAMA: Oh yeah, I think the reparations we need right here in South Carolina is investment, for example, in our schools."
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2007/s1987225.htm

oh Latasha: what a sweet, caring person you seem to be. You just changed my mind. No check is in the mail. No reparations for you. I deducted the 6 muggings and the break-in thru the transom of the kitchen window when the brothas made off with the microwave, the food in the freezer and my winter coat. Then I factored in gvc's reparations owed us for 400 years of slavery in Egypt at the hands of Africans. (Don't argue: Egypt is in Africa) I added the wear and tear on my nerves from living across from a crack house for year. Pay up Latasha. Don't be a deadbeat forever.

And Karoosh: don't mess with us. we will use those 200 nukes. You think only Arabs or Muslims can blow things up. Remember we have Sampson in our history.

alan and gvc, Michael Savage would be proud of you boys.

A: Who's Michael Savage?
And
B: Who'd be proud of you.., Goober?
Anybody we'd recognize?

Read up on Hugo Chavez's analyst of Iran, Israel and the Middle East. Hugo has a correct analyst as evidenced by, 8/22/02 San Francisco Board of Supervisors:021415[Commend President Hugo Chavez]Resolution commending the administration of President Hugo Chavez for its commitment to democracy.

I wonder if SF Board of Supervisors would have passed such a resolution AFTER Chavez's "commitment to democracy" led him to shut down the primary opposition media outlet in 2006?

Sneezer, they would. They are going to shut down Michael Savage. Hugo is greatly admired in The City here. Nobel Peace Prize winner Jimmy Carter also thinks highly of him.

It seems to be a strange, long and twisting route on how we all got commenting on Israel, blacks and the slavery of Jews in Ancient Egypt on a comment board discussing you lot over in the US going to war with Iran, but whatever.
Alan when you said in one of your posts 'And Karoosh: don't mess with us. we will use those 200 nukes. You think only Arabs or Muslims can blow things up. Remember we have Sampson in our history' it didn't really help the fast-growing stereotype of the world-domination-hungry Jew. Nukes are weapons of destruction and personally I don't think anyone should have any, but there's no such thing as an ideal world. What you basically said was: Support Israel or we'll blow you up.
Now I don't know if that's just me, but that seems just an EENSY bit Zionist, don't you agree? And why should blacks give you reparations for Jews being enslaved in Ancient Egypt. Personally, I think that has been well repayed by EVERYBODY. And I'm not black, so don't go calling me biased. But Israel are now such bosom buddies with America that they get more money per year from the US than starving children in Africa. Hmm, let's see: Little kids with no food or water doomed to a young and painful death, or nuclear weapons? I hardly think that's an open-ended question, to be honest. So perhaps the African peoples have repayed the 'debt' as you say, with poverty, suffering and corrupt governments. If you think that's fair, maybe you need to get some help.
Basically every faith or people of a different skin colour has been persecuted in history. First it was the Christans (don't argue with that, Nero absolutely massacred them), then it was the Jews. Then the Hindus, and now Muslims. if the world reimbursed, so to speak, everyone who has been persecuted or discriminated against we would find ourselves in a financial pothole so deep we would never be able to get back out. You're not the only ones. Deal with it.

nirvanagirl, you say a lot, you so wise.

nirvanagirl wrote: "And why should blacks give you reparations for Jews being enslaved in Ancient Egypt."

Exactly my point!
Why should anyone pay ME for the fact that my N.A. ancestors were wrongfully removed from their homes and lands?
Why should ANYONE pay Anyone Alive to compensate them for things that happened to someone a century or more in their grave?

But IF this society DOES start itself down the stupid, dead-end road of paying reparations for wrongs committed against one group's ancestors, then it has to pay reparations for wrongs committed against ALL group's ancestors, no?

gvc, liberalism is a mental disorder.

[Michael Savage wrote: gvc, liberalism is a mental disorder.... ]

Probably ranks right up there with NeoConservatism.

gvc, what you said about reparations was exactly my point! Everybody has been discriminated against at one point or another, and I mean EVERYBODY. Even the people who have discriminated against others. Its like a huge, perverted circle of life. We can't pay reparations to everybody, it's impossible.
So just, in the words of the U2 Vertigo tour sign, 'Coexista'.
Coexist peacefully people!!!!
Peeeeeeeaaaacccceeee....
=]

nirvanagirl..., we seem to be singing off the same sheet music.

OOOooooommmmmmm...