Diane, do you think that this law would apply to the Blacks that raped and killed Channon Christian?

there's no evidence that the christian/newsom crimes were racially motivated, so why would you mention that here?

This law will only be used against White straight men and women. nmc's remark is typical of what happens when Whites suffer hate crimes every day. It is simply denied. The bill will be vetoed because it is racist discrimination against those who are not favored-Whites.

MaryLou, step down. This is a positive thing. It bolsters the gay community, which I am a member of, by showing that through our diligence we can bring about change. How sad that you want to crap all over this because of your own damage. I can tell you as a white, gay male, that my ethnicity and my gender are not causing me social concerns [other than the inevitable guilt that sensitive people will sometimes assume].

I've never been able to figure out why a crime is more of a crime because of what motivated it.

Laws like this imply to the family of a person who was killed simply because someone didn't like his face (or his clothes, or the car he drove, or just because the perpetrator hated EVERYBODY) that his murder is less of a crime, and will be punished more lightly, than that of a man who was killed because he was black, or gay.

That just doesn't feel like 'justice' or 'equality' to me.

gvc -

I have pondered this, as well, and think the question is valid. I was never able to decide how I felt about it. But then I started to think maybe the answer is right but the question is wrong. If you ask, 'How can we express as a society our opposition to intolerance in a tangible way?' - then the answer makes more sense.
Also, consider that in some parts of the world, a person who kills or abuses someone based on race or sexuality may actually benefit from the bigoted mindset of law officers, judges, jurors, etc., who can subtly dismiss the gravity of the crime based on their own distaste for the victim. These laws give civil liberty defendants a little more power to protect victims in these situations. I can't agree that creating hate crimes laws actually diminishes victims of other crime, as much as I agree that at first blush, one might scratch his or her head on this.

This is so stupid...Thinking that it is MORE of a crime to kill someone because they like to "gay off" with there own gender..? what justice is that..? If you kill someone it is murder, doesnt matter why you do it..RIGHT.? Seems that a certian segment of our population is always trying to make themselves MORE important that the rest of us. Keep setting yourselves apart this way, and you just make NORMAL people fume even more...huh? WHy not try and fit in like everyone else, and stop trying to make yourself stand apart from the rest of society.. The president WILL veto this crap, and hopefully you people will try and assimilate instead of trying to always split everyone into different TRIBES...? We are all AMERICANS, i don't ask your business, so STOP telling me about your private business...try that for a change, and see how we all get along...!!!

"...consider that in some parts of the world, a person who kills or abuses someone based on race or sexuality may actually benefit from the bigoted mindset of law officers, judges, jurors, etc., who can subtly dismiss the gravity of the crime based on their own distaste for the victim"

The U.S. would be one of those places, of course. And gender orientation aside for a moment, consider that in most states in the U.S., a man who kills his wife gets minimum punishment, and a woman who kills her husband generally gets the maximum, even in cases of self-defense. Though we hear a lot about the inequities of punishment given to people of color, the gender inequity is a well-kept secret.

Equal justice is not a reality in the U.S., just as it is not a reality in many places. If it were, there would indeed be no need for hate crimes legislation.

[Equal justice is not a reality in the U.S.]

This is unquestionably true.
God knows how many laws already on the books that require it are not producing it, either.

Where is the logic that dictates that one more set of laws, dictating UN-equal punishment, will make it work like it's supposed to?

It seems to me that this course will be about as effective at achieving it's stated purpose as the "Zero Tolerance Policy" has been at stopping drug traffic.
We need to learn the lessons of an approach that hasn't worked, and try something different.

Gandhi had it right.
You've got to change hearts and minds. Not just pass stricter and stricter laws.

"I hope those straight men did kill Matthew Shepard," "I'd do it again myself."
Ha, Ha, just joking folks.

Jokes are supposed to be funny.

The only place that would draw a laugh would be at a Neo-Nazi/KKK rally, after the Southern Comfort had been passed from hand-to-hand for a good while.

["I hope those straight men did kill Matthew Shepard," "I'd do it again myself."
Ha, Ha, just joking folks.

Posted by: Sarah Silverman on 09/28/07 at 4:10 PM]

Oh Pat! How silly of you to think that by putting the Silverman comments into a homosexual context, I would suddenly see how her comments make Christians feel. You forget that I'm the one of the two of us who has a sense of humor. Tell me some more fag jokes - I've heard them all.
gvc - I like the Gandhi quote. It is the real point. My partner and I live out lives in a conservative community and, while anything could happen, we feel generally accepted. By living an honest, straight forward life, we are changing hearts and minds without the help of laws. However, I still think my earlier points have validity.

My son Jason and I came across McKenny and Henderson in 1996 or so because the local Meth dealer thought I was a "Narc," and he suggested I go camping at a certain location.
There, the two meth-heads approached us, first in ski masks, and then in other ways, and thanks to the .357 I always wear, they decided to go away. To lure us into coming into their trap, they raped and kidnapped a nearby camping couple, and made a big scene, shooting and yelling and the like, but I wasn't lured in. In the local media, it was reported as the "Spring Creek Assault." I heard the couple later got killed. Yes, I was in US Army MI, and I DO report drug activity, as the above.
The two thought I was "Queer," and they thought they'd get a "Joy crime" out of me and my son.
Reported it, nothing happened. You'd be amazed at how much drug activity is protected by police.
They weren't caught until they did M. Sheppard, unfortunately. But I sure wasn't surprised at it.
That's the way society is. Murder is a much more common human activity than anyone would care to admit. So is Corruption, especially in this Socialist/Maternalist way of Orwellian thought.
People will ALWAYS hate perversity, whether it is real, or just perceived, or fantasized about, or not.
Hitler started with "Sex perverts," "Mental retards," then it got to Jews, etc. etc... The US is not far behind.

Read the request for "Fag jokes - Read them all."
So Batman and Robin are climbing the rope ladder up the side of the building, and Robin asks "What's that up my a**, Batman?"
Batman replies, "Cock, Robin!"
(A cockrobin is a very common bird in England, and this is a very favored joke over there in the UK.)

Sarah Silverman, the Jewish racist said: "I hope the Jews did kill Christ," she rages. "I'd do it again." She provokes anti-Semitism. What she says is a hate crime. gvc, you are right about her. She should be prosecuted under this law. We know that not all Germans were Nazi's just like not all Jews are racists.

But, Pat, if you watched Sarah Silverman's stand up you'd realize that she is poking fun at the big boogey man we call racism. Racism, by the way, is not the right word. We are all of the human race; what people have a problem with is other ethnicities. The correct term for what you think you are hearing from Silverman would be bigotry.
However, anyone who likes Silverman's comedy for the sake of it would be unlikely to be violent through it because she jabs all groups so the person who really is hyper sensitive about race would be offended enough by the time she got around to his/ her group to just shut her off and move on. She didn't invent this, by the way. Don Rickles was hilarious and added the grace of humor to the edginess of 'race' relations in the sixties and seventies. Humor IS a form of grace, Pat.

personally I don't believe it's really Sarah who's posting the comments here, and without the full context these remarks do read pretty offensively

Jackie Leonard once commented at a Don Rickles roast "he not only stole my whole act, he also stole my head!"
i thought Jack Leonard was a riot but Don sometimes didn't quite hit the mark for me

I don't think that "THE" Sarah Silverman, from T.V. is the on posting here.. I don't think she has time... think abou it..? anyway. YOU people still don't get it.. the whole purpoe of our discussion was weather "Gay Off" likeing people had more right than do the rest of us AMERICANS,,,> You should know... we are getting REALY fed up with you forceing your "Gay Off" behavior in our faces, and if you don't stop... our children will teach you a losson in Majority Rules. ..!!! This is not a threat of anykind... Our children will use there voteing power in 25 yrs to teach you to keep your behavior to YOURSELVES... understand...? you will NEVER marry.. you need opposite parts to do that. hahaha.. get used to the reality of the USA..!!!hahahaha.. not your "Gay Off" business... you will always be thrown out of yoru place of employeement, you will be told to get BACK in the closet....By the way.? Why DID you leave the closet,..? when you know you were NOT NORMAL...?

BIll..:-)

Rick, I'm glad that you and your son managed to escape this pair of monsters and i have no doubt that you're right about the 357 mag making the difference
it's one thing assholes like them understand

it's very unfortunate that the nearby couple wasn't equally well prepared for an event like the one that occurred

i'm not a gay man myself but i am an advocate of all people understanding that it is their own responsibility to see to their security and that police protection of individual citizens is an absolute myth
just ask the supreme court

harsher punishment of the perps does Matthew Shepard damned little good in his grave
it's pretty obvious that the sort of people who launch this sort of attack on people have zero regard for what the law says, or what the punishments may be
a few extra years if they get caught?
so what?
they're pretty certain they won't get caught anyway, otherwise they'd never do it

a while back i ran across a link to a site dedicated to gays and lesbians arming for their own defense
[http://www.pinkpistols.org/]
i was favorably impressed and think that if there was more support for that concept and more publicity about it, the fact that gay and lesbian people may well be prepared to defend themselves by force of arms would cause the McKennys and Hendersons of America to be far less brazen in their actions

given that FBI statistics show armed citizens account for considerably more shootings of confirmed violent felons 'in the act' than the police do, it's safe to assume that there would end up being fewer McKennys and Hendersons to worry about

i wish i knew of a way to convince what the McKennys and Hendersons consider their 'victim class' to take their own defense as their own responsibility
it bothers me considerably to see good people being abused and killed by monsters like them, knowing they could have given themselves a chance to walk away like you and your son did and that they had every right to do just that

forget about increased punishments after someone has been mutilated and murdered because of their race, sexuality, religion or any other reason
put a stop to it at the source
see that you survive to tell the tale and it'll become a moot point

Jet, I wasn't familiar with Jackie Leonard so had to look him up on you tube. The only skit I could find though really didn't seem like a good vehicle for him, so I'll take your word for it. Still liked Rickles.

Say no to Jewish racists. Don Rickles is Jewish, like Sarah Silverman. They are both very offensive people with their racist humour and are prime candidates for prosecution under hate crime laws. Just wait until the Democrats come to power. Watching Sarah's act I was just left cold by how racist jokes are apprently OK when they come out of a mouth of a beautiful woman who allegedly coats them in IRONY, but somehow when Larry the Cable Guy does his red state/redneck jokes(some of which are racist), David Cross and Lewis Black speak out aganst him in Rolling Stone. There is NOTHING wrong with titillation as long as it is not dressed up as intelligent social criticism. It's not that I don't think she is funny. I GET THE JOKES. In fact, that is most of my problem. After listening to all of her racist jokes in her movie, I walked out thinking, "I GET IT, SARAH! All the stereotypes about black people are TRUE. Thanks for the update. And YES, I know her act isn't all about race, but anyone familiar with her knows that it's basically 70% jokes that put down women and 30% jokes that put down minorities. The marches will begin soon.

So 'Al Sharpton' digs Larry the Cable Guy.

Who'd a' thunk it?

And who'd a thunk that 'Al Sharpton' didn't realize that Democrats have already come to power in the most practical sense. It's just hard to distinguish them from the Republicans judging by the output of their Congress.

thank you