Hey Debra, don't forget the racist and homophobic references as well. I took my four year old son to the movie the other weekend and was horrified by the crap that was instilled into a good Dr Seuss story. The secretary (not from the book) was a bluish hue like the monkey characters, she was the only chracter to speak with a distinct African-American accent, and she was portrayed as lazy and libidinous surfing online dating websites at work (although she was competent at her job). And the first character to be trampled during the stampede, yup her. Then during an extended scene where mayor-dad shows his son all the 'great' grandfathers, and one grandmother, who were mayor of Whoville we glimpse a great grandfather who wore women's clothes, "Not so great" the mayor tells his son. This wasn't in the story! Then the eagle Vlad Vladikoff, who was in the book, has morphed into a vulture with a thick Slavic accent, Romanian perhaps? And he's portayed as a mercenary. Nice touch. Also don't forget the pro-lifers who cheer the movie because of the motto "A person's a person no matter how small." Truly not what Dr Seuss was about, nor the moral which was more evident in the story. Bottom line don't go to this movie, don't take your kids to it or pay for your kids to see it. Dr Seuss' creative genius has been hijacked to subversively preach intolerance and promote negative stereotypes. Also it's another vehicle for increasingly boring self critical psycho-dribble and father issues from Jim Carey. But that's my point of view.

Yes!

Let's see - 6,000ish years of traditional human rolls and you are going to wipe all that out with one discussion? And the more you bash her over the head with feminism, the more likely she will run off to become a Mormon.
Your daughter will only know her strength when she is confronted with and overcomes adversity.
You would think that this was a neo-con rant with all the media blame being laid.

Great post, Debra.

Debra, your hate comes through. You are just a man hater. You have been dumped too often and can't get a man to live with you.

"So where is my daughter learning to accept that she's weak, helpless, and second best? Everywhere."

No, she got it from the Horton movie. Or at least, that's the only example you list.

I understand the point you are making, but I'm sure there is some psychology literature out there that could back up what you are saying far better than an anecdote about your kids and some movie you took them to.

Aaron-

Clearly you're one who thinks a woman needs a man to live with. Debra did not blame men, she blamed society as a whole.

True, her daughter is only four years old and has dreams of a prince saving her and living happily ever after. But tabloid women (Hilton, Lohan) keep the message alive that it's necessary to appear dumb and helpless for people to like you.

So, yes, it is necessary to tell young girls stories of girls who save the day in addition to classic fairy tales.

I concur, great post Debra.

Aaron: Do you realize you just provided an additional illustration of Debra's point? If you have some legit criticism, go for it, but reaching for the "you hate men, no wonder you're single" attack is a misogynist classic that only highlights gender problems in our society.

It is important for young girls to learn or know, that, one of the role of boys/prince in life amongst other, is to save/protect or take care of his girl/princes and not otherwise.

This is a good psychological example for all children who need a Father.

Debra, your daughter's natural female's instinct is working. She will understand the reality when she grows up.

Thank you for this post.

I've been known to rant a bit at the retrograde propaganda that I catch the culture throwing at my 3 granddaughters myself, but you (of course) say it so much better.

Dr. Suess must be rolling over in his grave. I don't know if the story is old enough to be in public domain yet, but if not, and his estate gave permission for this kind of c***, I guess they only care about the money. Unfortunately, until we have a culture that is not based on consumerism, woman will continue to be treated as commodities, to be pampered and saved - hopefully while spending money at the mall. For a sample of another tack, see my own books, Neitherworld, books one and two, available on Amazon etc. Believe me, it was tricky to write about a strong woman (archaeologist), a troubled yet resourceful ten year old girl, and a number of other strong female characters. It was particularly tricky while the protagonist had a love interest. I tried to make them both capable characters, but some people see the male lead as weak, so I'm not sure I succeeded. As a writer, I have no use for weak characters, male or female. No wonder Whoville's mayor's 96 daughters served mainly as background in Whoville - strong characters move a story, weak ones are boring, just like real life. You might want to give your daughter Promethea by Alan Moore et al. The graphic novel series has strong female characters throughout, though its adult themes might be a bit much.

Debra,

I'm so disappointed that that's what they've done with one of Dr. Seuss's great social commentaries. For years I have been instilling the power of Yopp into my kids, and I, like you, hold the dignity of women as a value most dear.

When the Horton movie came out and did so well at the box office, I was ecstatic (not having seen it). Could so many now be benefiting from the themes of faith, loyalty, and courage that the original story carries throughout? Evidently not.

I recently purchased the old TV cartoon of Horton after reading the original to my (get this) very pleased 16 year old daughter. Now she knows what Yopp means, and she sees her mom letting out Yopps left and right every day through word and deed. This is my legacy to my children.

I have not seen the box office smash. I probably won't now. I was hoping someone hadn't ruined the message and intent of Theodore Geisel's brilliant story.

Alas. Hollywood usually gets the last laugh. Message perverted. Kids soak it in. Women continue to be diminished. So sad.

Great comment, Dave. Unfortunately, now I want to see it.

Stop Making Movies About My Books
BY DR. SEUSS
APRIL 2, 2008 | ISSUE 44•14

On the fourteenth of March, in towns nationwide,
In every cinema, multiplex, on every barnside,
Gleamed another adapting of one of my books,
CGI-ed and digitized by another sly crook.

Horton, my favorite—look how he's been treated!
Stuffed with tinsels and tassels and promptly excreted!
The puns! And the filler! The script fees you must save!
While I tumble and grum-humble around in my grave.

Read the rest at The Onion!
http://www.theonion.com/content/opinion/stop_making_movies_about_my

Great post.

The cultural roles that girls and boys are indoctrinated into create limitations as they grow and learn. These roles should be reviewed with a realistic eye as both boys and girls pay the price when they are led to a stereotype instead of being led to self discovery.
Thanks for the post.

While I don't disagree with the basic thrust of your blog (I was kind of offended by the 96 daughter thing too), let me offer a slightly different perspective.

Medical science is gradually revealing that boys are much more fragile that girls. One of the ways in which this greater fragility manifests itself is in the substantially higher (by a ratio of 4 to 1) incidence of childhood neurodevelopmental disabilities in boys as compared to girls.

One of the most common neurodevelopmental disabilities is autism. (Did you know that Jim Carrey has a child with autism in his immediate family?) The defining characteristic of autism is impaired language development. In the Horton movie the Mayor's son does not speak. He has a neurodevelopmental disability, maybe autism.

In the movie the Mayor's son overcomes his disability and performs a valuable public service. For viewers like myself who have had direct personal experience with one or more disabled children, this plot element was inspiring.

Debra:
However, on the other hand, almost every commercial or television show that portrays someone as an ignorant dunce portrays that person as an adult male. I can't remember the last time I saw a commercial where the person who is clueless and doesn't know how to use the product is a female. So, my son is being taught that only girls can grow up to be competent, intelligent people. In reality, the problem is with the media in totality and how they portray everyone.

kids need fathers .boys are different from girls .

Woah....chiiiiiil. I hope you don't make assumptions based on almost nothing in your everyday life, for your own sake.

There are two ways of looking at the same thing. All of the "96 amazing, beautiful, unpredictable, mysterious, distinct, glorious human beings" are female while the one offspring who needs "fixing" is male. As a guy, I'm certainly not impressed.

I completely understand your frustration.

When our daughters start acting like yours did it's our job, as parents, to find out why and do something about it.

I ditched the Disney Princesses for the same reason. Not surprising I got a lot of flack when I wrote about it too from Men who don't get it.

It's not one movie it's many, many movies. Media does play a part in shaping our girls and we have a right to expect more out of the industry than girls are getting.

Here's a link to the Geena Davis Institute on Gender in the Media - they are working toward the same end: http://www.thegeenadavisinstitute.org/

Great comments! This on the
movie that I have not seen.
Oprah was pushing the movie
on her televison show with
Jim Carrey and Carol Burnett.
Even with Dr. Suess there isn't anything that Hollywood
wouldn't butcher if they had
half a chance.

That's terrible about the movie...I'm only twenty, but God save me when (and if) I have kids someday. It's like going back and watching School House Rock: what the hell? How did I grow up to be be considerate and compassionate towards other when I was raised watching movies that encouraged a self-destructive nationalism?

Anyway, kids are kids; I played with toy guns all the time when I was little, and yet, I grew up a pacifist. My entire family loves fishing, and that encouraged me to love the world in which I live, not to treat it as something to be conquered.

Let's face it: the messages that stick, the messages that children take to heart, those messages are the ones that are the lessons that are compassionate, loving, and inclusive. Trust in the message, not the messenger, eh?

Easier said than done, but in retrospect, I am very grateful for the lengths that my parents went to in counteracting the pervasive noxious messages that drench our children. We had no TV in our home, ever. No Barbies, only dolls that looked like real humans. All the Tonka trucks that I wanted. No Disney movies, ever. They are full of the most egregious stereotyping and "girls are useless" messages imaginable. I think the most helpful was lots and lots of biographies written for kids about amazing women like Rachel Carson, or Jane Goodall or Helen Keller, or Maria Montessori, and lots of stories featuring girl heroines - like Pippi Longstockings, or the Miss Bianca books. Plus, lots of exposure to science and other "traditionally male" arenas. The end result was that I grew up never doubting that I was as capable as any man, just that the onus was on me to prove it.

"Believe me, it was tricky to write about a strong woman (archaeologist), a troubled yet resourceful ten year old girl, and a number of other strong female characters. It was particularly tricky while the protagonist had a love interest. I tried to make them both capable characters, but some people see the male lead as weak, so I'm not sure I succeeded."

Unfortunately, people probably view your male character as "weak" because he is playing a secondary part to the more prominent female characters.

Scott- I'll be curious to read your books- having been both a troublesome 10 year old, AND a woman archaeologist, I very much enjoyed the company of both my rowdy 10 year old friends, and my women colleagues when I was an archaeologist. Non of us had much time for lackluster men - I wonder why it was a challenge to write about? What I recall of those times is a long chain of funny and interesting anecdotes and adventures!

I agree with Debra's post in totality, but want to add a thought about how these media ideas hurt men, too. What kind of standard are we setting for a father to love his son - he has to save the whole world? I don't have kids, but every parent I know who I think 'gets it' [including my own] want most of all to know their children are well-adjusted and happy people. The love comes naturally. But in this scenerio the boy has to go on an Odyssey-like test of merit in order to earn love. I think that stinks on hot ice.
I agree with erik h. - everyone suffers from this kind of message.

I have three daughters. I'm a dad. They were brought up open-minded and confident. They still have to prove themselves twice as much for half the recognition.
It's a bad movie.

You're sick Aaron.

Allan, may be you are just an anti-Semite?

Beautiful very well wrote and interesting ! Love it great imagination.

Debra, I think you need to give your kids a bit more credit. You sound like you're so intent on molding them into the people you want them to be that you lose sight of the fact that kids learn from how their parents behave, not from the proselytizing they spew. You have no tolerance for bigotry - as you say, you fight bigotry for a living. I'm sure that in time your children will learn to be equally intolerant - not from what you try to teach them, but from what they see in your own actions and values. You consider it a badge of honor to fight bigotry whereever you see it. That's fine. But bigotry is part of the human condition, and simply railing against it does little to curtail its effects. Did it ever occur to you that your daughter's fantasy play belongs to her - that she is entitled to have her own thoughts, beliefs, values?
As for those who commented that they have no use for weak, lackluster men, that also strikes me as rather intolerant. While dictating to the world how girls and women are supposed to view themselves and behave, you simultaneously demand that boys and men fit your ideas of how they should be.

Aaron, why must you continue with stupid personal attacks? You have nothing else? No other 'real' opinion on the subject? Just because Allan disagrees with you, now he's an anti-semite? I personally know many Aarons who are not Jewish anyway, so what's your point? Are you going to assume I am Catholic because I have an Irish name?

Maybe you need to look in the mirror and figure out why you yourself are obviously such a hater? You can't get a woman (or man) to live with you either?? What is your problem? If you have nothing relevant to say, just run along and insult someone else on another site.

It takes a child to put things right.
The only kick-arse I see females doing is sarcasm, vilification and working in HR.
The kid is right, the women need men; just the same way as the men need women. But the white, over-educated, self-righteous, arrogant consumer oriented female; just doesn't get it.
They don't hate men; they hate themselves.

Is it okay for a movie to have a son save the day? There are more and more movies and shows that have women/girls as saving the day...does each show have to make it even between which gender gets to rescue?

Considering the obvious inspiration that the real Mother Jones has for this magazine and its contributors, the reaction to the 96 daughters and one son is kind of expected. But is it okay for some girls to want to be a princess? Is it okay for some boys to want to be a prince to rescue a princess? Everybody can't always be the rescuer, everybody at some point needs rescued by somebody.

Can a girl be feminine and strong? A princess who needs rescued and a princess who is tough in child-birth? Can a princess fight bigotry?

In light of the increasing violence amongst schoolage boys and girls, maybe there should be less angst over which gender is highlighted as the rescuer, and start working with boys and girls to both be rescuers.

That said, there was no real need to have 96 daughters who get insufficient time with their father...a real sad state of affairs.

""I'm a single mom with a freelance career; they watch me struggle and kick ass everyday""

(Yawn)

Yeah, yeah..

Just keep telling yourself that.

Interesting point of view... but I guess it had to be one sex or the other... Why is it so bad to have a movie where a little outcast boy is the hero? How many outcast boys shoot up schools or act out? Girls need positive "role models" but so do boys. I think horton hears a who will be less influencial fact than the fact that most of americas "heroes" are positions held by men. Soldiers, police officers, firemen... those people sent to the rescue... is that fact the way it should be? probably not but it is still the fact. I think you are worried about something silly.

Aaron - you're a moron - especially if you can't see the she wasn't railing against the man, but the message

Leticia -

i hope that was pointed sarcasm

if not, i hope you're not in any way, shape, or form parenting, teaching, or mentoring girls

as a young girl, i despaired of ever finding role models to suit me - in literature or popular culture - so, i turned to sci-fi/fantasy - you won't find more well-rounded female characters anywhere else - i was nine when i started reading this genre - i am now 35, and i write sci-fi/fantasy for girls/young women - i want them to have the same empowering messages i got from reading such books - i believe sci-fi/fantasy remains one of the more equalizing genres of the day

Theodor Seuss Geisel must be spinning in his grave! Perhaps one could wrap wires around him and use him to generate low-carbon electricity.

When I was a little girl my favorite book was "Horton Hatches a Who"--which is even worse from a feminist prospective.

In that book Horton meets a bird who has just hathed an egg. The bird asks Horton if he wouldn't mind guarding her egg so that she can take a little break. She then flies off and leaves Horton alone with the egg.

Stays there, sitting on the egg, through rain, wind, and al kinds of bad weather.

But as a child, the book spoke to me. Till this day, I try to live by Horton's mantra:" I meant what I said, and I said what I meant. An elephant's faithful, 100%".

Folks... you're being foolish if you take Aaron's comments to heart. He's obviously just trying to provoke for the fun of it.

As for the post... whatever... teach your kids what's right and they'll figured it out. I'm a little surprised anyone would take this incident so seriously... she's just a 4 year old kid. Correct her and move on.

I also played with toy guns all the time as a kid and went fishing all the time and watched a TON of probably really really sexist cartoons, etc... and I also grew up a pacifist and a nature lover and an ardent believer in universal acceptance and equality.

As someone who has voted Republican as often as Democrat, I raised my daughters, both born in the 70’s, to be independent and self-sufficient, regardless of whether a man was in their lives or not. This was not a matter of “womaning” the barricades in defense of feminism, but because I love my daughters. Life is unpredictable and full of twists and turns and to raise kids of either gender to be dependent, fragile and less than self-sufficient does the child no small disservice. And from my geezerly and perhaps curmudgeonly observations, just what would they rely on today’s young man for? My observation of many of the young men who are supposedly educated is that they have little or no technical knowledge of the machinery that makes modern life possible, except how to purchase same with a credit card, do not appear to understand basic courtesy and manners, seem to want mothers more than a wife or lover, and appear to be mainly interested in being “players” ,if that is the correct term.
In my opinion “free love” and the “sexual revolution” is still causing casualties and collateral damage.

Yeah, wait'll Hollywood gets ahold of the Lorax. No longer will it be a story about saving forests. Instead, if they follow form, it'll be about saving some ski resort from evil enviro-terrorists. I see Pamela Anderson for the hot she-lorax who owns the resort, and talking trees, played by Kitt the talking car.

Naturally, the kid with the 'Y' saves the day here too -- we've got to show kids who wears the athletic cup, after all.

Television and almost all movies are just plain crap; part and parcel of programming the culture into our "proper" roles. Viewers don't look critically at the messages, because they are conditioned not to examine the mental food they are served. Television is such crap that it can never hold up to examination. If I wax critical to a tv addict about the nonsense they're watching, they get mad. TV is meant to be watched - it's not supposed to make sense. They don't want to think about what they're doing to their brains for hours a day.

This is probably why democracy is clinically dead in this country. People's minds have been schizmed by multiple layers of nonsense, so that they can believe several contradictory propositions at once, and never notice that they don't agree. Different topics call up different frames of reference, so everything can be true, while nothing is true. In such a schizoid state, logic itself is nonsense.

----
(zzsstttspt...) This is your brain, on tv.

So right. Girls do get the message (sometimes subtle & sometimes not so subtle)in popular culture that they are inferior. In many ways, women are worse off now that they were 20 years ago.
We cannot let our daughters fall for the rebirth of mysogeny. Maybe it never died.

Erik K: the gender balance in commercials is a marketing code, which exploits (and therefore reinforces) gender stereotypes.

The reason the duuf that gets it wrong first is male, is because males are the "power gender." The commercial-viewer sees the power figure and immediately (in the first micro-second, before he says or does anything) identifies him- or herself with that figure (women commonly associate with the male figure too, studies show). Note that the guy, stupid or not, is always cute. Then the guy says something stupid, and the message is: even YOU (the apocryphal best-person-in-creation) can get it wrong! Hooww embarassing! The getting-it-wrong is always done in theatrical high style, so the point is impossible not to get.

Then the low-status figure sweeps in, and effortlessly: not only gets it right, but makes YOU (remember you identified with the power figure) look like a fool.

The lesson learned is obvious: don't be a fool. Emulate the clever one. When this message runs through your unjudging, tranced-out brain a few times, the product in the picture is firmly associated with getting-it-right. This sort of gender/appearance self-identification strategy is rife in brainless sitcoms, where they make sure the mechanism is firmly installed in your mind, and therefore on tap for product placement.

It's also rife on Faux "news," where they make sure that their guy looks good, while the other guy is badly made-up and badly lighted, and is constantly cut off by the cute, assertive anchors. Of course the same code is also used by just about any other programming on the air. Really, all you need to know about television, is where the money goes. TV is for selling product, and EVERY feature of TV is traceable to that fact. It's worth good money, to make consumers functionally stupid, so tv is set up to do just that. And it works wonderfully.

Resisting this sort of well-crafted commercial (and it's ALL a commercial) programming requires purposeful attention to 1) understand the message they're trying to stick in your brain, and 2) make sure you actively counter that message. Needless to say, watching television without getting sucked in is a tiring proposition. For those who care about what they let into their private and precious thinking organ, television just isn't worth it.

The exceptions are PBS, who sell very little product, and C-SPAN who do not sell product at all. Note that these channels are laid back and largely don't tell you what to think.

---
Shoot the tv. Shoot it with a big gun.

I recommend: Life and times of Annie Oakley, Carrie Nation, women's suffrage, and multitudes of female athletes. Also, history of women's roller derby. Amelia Earhart, and Shirley Muldowney.
http://www.nhra.com/2004/news/april/042801.html
http://www.ameliaearhart.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_suffrage
Also:
www.google.com just because...

This surprises me. I played with He-man characters, played Mortal Combat with my brother on the Nintendo, climbed trees, played in mud, got into fights with neighborhood boys. And then I grew up. Kind of. I had crushes (many), I enjoyed perfume, pink, lacy things, pink lacy things, boys, boys, boys. I looked up to the male figure in my life as being a strong protector of all things feminine and familial. Most of my heroes as an adult happen to be male. And I am proud to be a strong, independent and capable woman who has a strong, independent and capable mother. (and as it happens, two sisters and two brothers of the same ilk) Have a little more faith in the example you are setting for your daughter and be careful about being dangerously close to turning the tables on men. Every single human being has strength in some way; it's not about gender, it's about self.

Kids are not stupid. Quit haranguing your kids with reprogramming, and accept that the long term demonstration of your principles, not endless application of harangues and rants, is what kids learn from.

It sounds to me like you have allowed your seeming anger at traditional gender roles to go beyond simply demonstrating a different one into hyper reaction against them. Kids take what is said with a huge grain of salt when it conflicts with everything else they see. They need you to be less overt and more trusting that your example will sink in.

After raising a son to adulthood, I have been shocked by the difference in raising my young daughter - she is a powerful personality, but so vulnerable to insecurity and self-criticality. It is a tough world for little girls, and it is tough for their moms, too come to think of it. For her and I both, I emphasize compassion, for self and others, and critical thinking - we will all come across stuff that will challenge our view - responding with both kindness and thought keeps us in touch with the joy of living.

Anyone who denies the basic difference between boys and girls needs to spend some time in the sandbox! They are born about as similar as tosterone and estrogen!

And let's not forget that boys are subject to the same distorted media and culture induced pressures as girls, and in some ways the boy's retion can be more damaging.

Boys are pressured to be successful in school so they can become successful bread-winners. They are told not to cry or express emotions. They are told to be tough. Boys tend to feel powerless so they turn to wrestling strongman buffoons, karate chopping movie stars, Monster truck shows, and other displays of violence and power.

When they become men they are subject to the pressures of being a man. Be successful or no woman will want you. Earn more than your female counterpart (something women overwhelming support). Above all, no matter how gritty it gets, don't cry about it. Don't wimp out. Use Viagra if you limp out. Keep your hair at all costs. Don't get fat. Kick ass and Man up!

I understand and sympathize with the message in the story, but in my view it is too slanted towards the girls plight. Boys have it no better than girls - believe me. When they grow up to be men they even get to die sooner than women. Could it be the pressure of "Being a man?"

Your daughter will grow up to be what you are not.

Bruce, a couple of details would add to your contribution.

Debra is the mother of a girl. The incidents in question happened to and around a girl. If she were the mother of a boy, I suppose we might expect her to address that aspect; but she's talking about her daughter, here and now, so her concern here is about factors that affect her daughter. Why should she address the boys' problems in a post that's specifically about her daughter's situation?

There is tap on the side of your head. Try twisting it to "open."

Male problems get addressed plenty. People like you will see to that, so let Debra address the problems in front of her, since no one else was rushing to do it.

And, dude, I didn't see in Debra's post, or anywhere in the comments, that anyone is denying that there are differences between boys and girls. Seeing problems where there are none is the first sign that (someone) is carrying baggage, and trying to make someone else carry it for them.

All that said, I agree wholeheartedly (and think it likely that Debra would too) that social programming is often as hard on and bad for men, as it is for women. In that light, the programming she's addressing is - exactly - as bad for the little boys, as it is for the little girls. And: Exactly who it's bad for is not the central issue, next to the pretty obvious fact that it's wrong for EVERYONE.

So don't kill the messenger, dude. Kill the stupid television!

yes yes yes

I'm not going to bother answering the sexist, conservative morons who posted above; there are plenty of morons on the internet.

When I was a little girl, I experienced the beginning of the neocon spree that has driven our country into the dirt for 27 years, and I see even more of it now. What's scary is how impressionable most kids are. I was drawing people with the daughter of a friend (they are white) and when she called a peach crayon "flesh color" both I and her mother balked and corrected her. And her daughter said "I'm drawing a person from here, not from India." And we cringed. See, my friend is divorced and her husband is conservative. And whatever she tells her daughter when she can see her, he tells the kid something different. And it is startling to see that kind of innocent, terrifying bigotry in a child. We are so wired to pick up messages, and this country is full of the wrong ones.

O bless you, for writing, for the day by day by night exhaustion of saying seeing speaking and living, as best one can, the truth. Above all for loving that truth and a truthful way of living.
In Europe I take up the 'Droits de L'Homme' people. Who don't get it. (That's the title for all human rights issue questions and support)Are insulted(!) when I point out that walking one's talk is of the highest importance, especially in something as powerful as using a language that contradicts all they are saying, that could be changed so simply and no longer do harm.Terrifying.
Blessed be, luv, and keep at it.

FYI: By the time a baby is born; it is no longer a FETUS!

Debra darling:

Lets forget all the other great cartoon movies that have come down the pike the last decade; expecting as much transformation of Hollywood business practices as you do during THIS cultural period in America is kinda ridiculous. I think if you look at most of the impressions people are given of women in the movies they are what you said they are-- even when, on the surface, they're not. Yet feminists seem to only pick up on the really obvious ones like this movie, and not the others that are far more ironic, but virtually as bad. I cannot remember, for example, how many times I read or heard about women who were triumphantly taking their teenage daughters to see Quentin Tarantino's KILL BILL because they wanted their girls to see a different presentation of women as strong heroes--obviously never, at any time, noticing the plot of the movie, or the kind of enormous murder, criminal activity and bloodshed that would get KILL BILL country excluded from the Olympics that the very title, uh, kinda hinted at. In other words, are strong women serial killing businessmen with vaginas now? And THAT'S progress, over the damsels in distress?

It will be far more important for you to ask yourself how your four year old daughter got to see this movie and ingest all of its messages without your awareness or detailed knowledge. That's a parenting issue, not a feminist one. Today she's at a movie being fed all the wrong messages unbeknownst to you; tomorrow it could be a "feminist/free-spirit" college girlfriend, or an "enlightened" suburban boy friend from a "good family" feeding her all the wrong narcotics if you're not more vigilant.

Make this the *parenting* issue it is, instead of the feminist/societal one that exists only in grad school seminars, and you find your daughter's mind will be a lot safer--and you'll have far less to worry about.

And by the way: who are you voting for in this election, and why (or why not)?

"So where is my daughter learning to accept that she's weak, helpless, and second best? Everywhere."

Perhaps a glance in your mirror might be your first stop, Debbie.

Woman are diminished? If so, only because of their actions
and lack of understanding of what they are capable of. God did create two very seperate and yet complimentary creatures with man and woman. 'Woman guard the virtues that men are honored to protect.' There in lies the mystery and magic.

God creates us one way. But it takes a liberal to pound it out of us. Even a 4-year old can understand it. I hope she finds her prince someday. In the meantime I feel pity for her mother who is too proud to realize she has been brainwashed all of these years.

Dan, WTF? So how does an atheist reconcile issues of gender? I see you've got it wrapped up regarding yourself. 'Women guard the virtues that men are honored to protect.' That is the silliest shit I ever heard. Is that a line from Ladyhawk or The Three Musketeers? Corny.

eviltwit,

It is not a sarcasmic fantasy ... I am pointing out both facts of reality, from experience and from heart without hate and without side in anyway:
Black and white
Boy and girl
Acceptance and Tolerance
Love and Respect

I am speaking as a natural born mother ... abandoned with two girls now adult/women, 25 & 20 years old respectively and a grandmother of an 8 weeks old boy.

My parenting way of living is freedom of growth in a natural way with all the ups and downs, strenghts and weaknesses of men and women.

To speak about the truth direct to the point, is sometimes blowing sarcasm ... I do not mean to offend though! ... I am just speaking the truth by experience and dids.

If we women ... will not give a chance for a man to be a man ... who will give them?

The machos? they are not man to me ... they are Babys.

The world is full of conflict and so we are ...

Isn't it time for peace in a natural way?

To the person bashing the Dr. Seuss movie about the perceived pro-life message. Good job, because we don't want to teach our kids not to kill innocent babies in their mother's bellies. We are a civilized society that supports dismembering babies and being proud of it...oh wait...that's not civilized, that's barbaric.

Wow. Do I feel sorry for your kids or what? Especially your son. What can a son ever accomplish in a radical feminist household? You are teaching your daughter to grow up as unhappy as you are, denying her the strength and true happiness that comes from embracing womenhood, and its complimentary role in the man/woman marriage. Likewise, your son will grow up without a rudder, without purpose as he is denied his calling to build and protect his family. I bought this radical feminist line in college, luckily I grew up though.

Boys and girls ARE different, and therein lies each of their strengths. I have two daughters and one son. Two are teenagers and one is still young. They are all happy, well adjusted and secure. I agree with others posts here that the ones who suffer the most as kids these days are boys, not girls. Wait a few years as your boy grows up in the school system. Schools are geared for girls. Boys are expected to behave like girls or be put on medication or ridiculed. Thanks, but i'll take a manly man any day (and I have a great one!). That means raising boys to be boys, not girls. Otherwise we will wake up one day and say "where have all the men gone?" The feminist agenda will have destroyed them.

I hope you get over your insecurities so you don't pass along your views to you children.

To all the manly men out there - thank you! There are still women out here that appreciate and value you!

Sorry, but I couldn't help but respond to this quote of yours:

"Yeah, and if I'm very lucky, someday I'll get to wipe the sweat from your brow as you push out a fetus as big as you were. Then we'll talk about tough."

You may be in a for disappointement. Actually, it should read like this: "Someday your HUSBAND will get to wipe the sweat from your brown as you push out a BABY as big as you were." And he will tell her how strong and beautiful she is and how he awed by her strength. As the grandmother, your place is in the waiting room. Again, this is if your daughter is lucky and doesn't fall prey to the same kool-aid you drank.

"The end result was that I grew up never doubting that I was as capable as any man, just that the onus was on me to prove it."

The problem is that by your own admittance you are still making men the standard. If being as good as any man is the goal than you are admitting that most women have not attained that goal and are therefore inferior. ( this is not my point, nearly a reiteration of what is being said).

haha! Looks like your daughter doesn't want to grow up a miserable angry and bitter woman like you! Naturally, it seems, your daughter is showing you the innate qualities of our DESIGN as human beings and we're not meant to be "single moms" "kicking ass" and hating that our kids don't grow up as mindless robots spouting everything us adults say.

I tell my daughter that unless she becomes a nun, have lots of kids and ultimately that the husband is the head of the family.....

Someone has to make up for the feminists!

:)

Probably no one is reading the comments on this thread anymore, as there are so many (I'll admit I didn't read them all), but I'll weigh in anyway. You may bemoan the 'message' in Horton and other media all you like. You may perceive much of the media as being slanted 'right' or misogynist, or whatever. As an 'ultraconservative' or whatever, I perceive the media as being left-slanted. But I see some signs that the slant is tilting back a bit. Why would this be? I suspect that the media is finally catching on to the fact that leftwing ideas don't sell as well as they used to, especially in children's media. Why would that be? Perhaps because children's media is payed for by those...who actually have children.

Since many on the left have chosen to have no or few children (killing off one's offspring before they're born, and engaging in relationships biologically incapable of producing offspring do tend to limit one's representation in posterity, after all) those with larger families will tend increasingly to drive the market in children's media.

Case in point: I have 4 kids. I bought tickets for them to see Horton. Loved the pro-life message, btw. If someone makes a movie of a Suess book and turns it into an anti-American polemic, an atheistic screed, or a feminist rant, take a guess as to whether I'll buy my kids tickets to it.

Demographics will eventually kick in. It's evolution in action. Survival of the fittest. Last man standing.

I remember reading a review of "My Best Friend's Wedding" that was rated according to Christian values. Maybe someone can create a website to do the same for gender issues in moview. I think the best thing for Debra to do is look for other children of feminists mothers for her children to associate with. Especially when they get older so her daughter won't have to sell out the feminism she learns while young in order to have children. T

Why are chicks and homos so touchy?

Get a life.

Hormones.

As a Darwinist, I know that natural selection drives all of life. I know that man is just another animal -- no special cosmic "rules" apply to us and our behavior.

I also know that females like your daughter are much more likely to achieve a replacement reproductive rate of 2.1 kids and continue the human race, unlike yourself and your fellow feminists.

As someone who actually likes the human race, I am heartened by your daughter's rejection of a sterile religion that is counter to natural selection.

Feminism and its attendant anti-natal beliefs will inevitably go the way of another American religion, the Shakers, and for the same reason: no babies = no future.

Sounds like someone has problems with her child having her own opinion. Thats really sad. Then they say that Christian parents are close minded.

I once saw this woman carrying a large stack of books to a doorway, so I kindly started to hold the door open for her. She was one of those militant fems, and loudly insisted that she didn't need me to help her. She said it in a very nasty voice too, so I let the door shut, stood there and laughed as she kept on trying to open the door. The best part was when she dropped all the books all over the place, lol. I walked away laughing, made my day, haha.

Wow! You people are really screwed up. The problem isn't the FACT that men and women aren't interchangable, my little marxist drones - the problem is that you are being manipulated by experts in the field and are too stupid to recognize it.
Clearly, the author of this piece and the Gyno-uber-alles crowd who applaud her are bitter and filled with rage against something, but as usual, its the wrong something that they rail against.
Free your mind and your @ss will follow.

"...as you push out a fetus..."

Sane people would call that “giving birth to a baby,” as I’m sure your daughter will, for she sounds more sane than you.

Debra,
I read your article as I passed through quite a bit of commentary. I niether need or expect you to lay out your life and will be on down the road when I hit the send button. But, looking back over my life and the raising of my three children, one girl and two boys, I can not imagine having to do it without my wife. I also think my wife would have struggled without me. We both brought different parts to the whole. You did not give any perspective as to the impact of your children's father in their lives. It could be your child is playing out her need for her father in her story. I do know we are not designed to do this alone, there are definately differences between men and women. We are designed different w/ different roles in mind. We have different strengths and different weaknesses. Men are designed w/o whatever it is that women provide and vice versa. Can we live fulfilling single lives? Absolutely. Can we take over other roles when necessary? Yes, of course. But, when we approach life as an "either or" or "one is better than the other" I believe we diminish ourselves. I do not think your daughter will be less for dreaming of a Prince. I do not think your son will be less for hoping to be a Prince. And Finally,re the poster who held the door open for the feminist, if a man offers to hold the door open thank him and if the man has hands full, return the favor. We will all live happier and healthier lives.

No wonder you're single.

If there’s any truth to natural selection, you’re daughter won’t be pushing out any fetuses.

Great response! I agree completely.

I have to admit... even as a child I hated Dr. Seuss.

Why?
because I thought the repetitive nonsense was irritating as hell & pretty damned stupid.

yes, I was a child who hated Dr. Seuss & thought the books were fucking patronizing & ugly.

I didn't even like the Grinch Who Stole Christmas animation, because I felt sorry for the dog.

It all just seemed... irritating & aggravating.

Turns out... I was right.

Gee, I missed out on all the all-essential Dr. Seuss culture... & it turned out to be a good thing. whodda thunk it?

~~~
Spread Love...
BlueBerry Pick'n
ThisCanadian com
~~~
"We, two, form a Multitude" ~ Ovid.
~~~
"Silent Freedom is Freedom Silenced"
"Do no harm"

So many efforts to program the children into being what the parents think that the child should be and in most cases failing!

Debra, think of your grandmother, how well did she program your mother? And then think of how well your mother programmed you? Did the lessons that your mother taught you hold? I think not, you become the person that you wanted to become, and so will your children. However if you push hard enough, you could destroy your children, but if it for their own good, then it would be OK!

I have known of a few programming that worked wonderfully, as long as the child was with the parent or parents full time. A kid that was a 4.0 student and good athlete, that never watched any TV or went to any movie that his parent’s didn’t approve of, and only read books that the parent’s liked. A kid that were shunned by the AV, Math and Chess clubs, because he was such a geek! Then the kid went away to college and suddenly for the first time in his life he got to decide what to do and generally he went crazy and did everything, dropped out of college and became a druggy!

And in another case, a girl that was raised with the concept that sex was recreation and that the state had no right to say with whom you could do it and that a women had the right to control her body anyway that she wanted to. That drugs were OK, as long as you didn’t become addicted to them.

So this girl at the age of 12 had her first sexual experience, and the same year started smoking grass. By the time that she was 17, she had tried most drugs and really really liked heroin, but knew enough after her first experience with it, never to use it again, it was so good. As for sex, she had 100 different partners, both men and women, young and old and was experienced enough to teach just about everyone something. Now this girl wasn’t raised in the past decade, this was back in the early 1960’s!

And her parents were shocked that what they had been telling the girl for her entire life, the girl listened to and did!

You know......I am a father of a beautiful 8 year old daughter. She has been taught that since day one, she can aspire to be or do anything she wants. But she also recognizes and understand the differences between men and women. She still plays with her dolls, says she wants a boyfriend when she is old enough to date, and wants to be a mom when she gets older. And you know what? More power to her for wanting that for herself.

But what she brags about most....is that she is faster in a race than all the boys and girls in her class at school. And you know what? MORE POWER TO HER for being proud of that. Because I know I am proud of her for that as well.

What saddens me in that blog....is that the author admits to "PUMMEL"ING her children with feminist rhetoric.

Why would you FORCE your beliefs on your children? If this blog had been written by a fundamentalist Christian....they would be called an abuser and people would be demanding that her children be taken away from her.

Worst of all, you subject your 7 YEAR OLD SON to this "pummel"ing of rhetoric and views. How sad to emasculate your son at such a young age, by ramming your twisted views down his throat. By doing this, you are teaching your son that his worth in this world is diminished and not needed, while you prop your daughter's worth as invaluable.

You are a sad sad parent. And by ramming this down their throat at every turn and in every situation, you are breeding a situation where later in life your children resent you and will do anything to get away from your anger and hate.

I wouldn't be able to live with my daughter resenting me for anything. I'll do anything in support of her to make sure she captures and masters every dream she has ever had. But I refuse to turn her into an instant victim if she doesn't get picked first.

My daughter has been taught since she was very young, that no matter how hard you work, or try.......you won't always get what want or desire. That there are times that someone, regardless of race or gender, who will get picked in front of you. And that is the REALITY of life.

You know......I am a father of a beautiful 8 year old daughter. She has been taught that since day one, she can aspire to be or do anything she wants. But she also recognizes and understand the differences between men and women. She still plays with her dolls, says she wants a boyfriend when she is old enough to date, and wants to be a mom when she gets older. And you know what? More power to her for wanting that for herself.

But what she brags about most....is that she is faster in a race than all the boys and girls in her class at school. And you know what? MORE POWER TO HER for being proud of that. Because I know I am proud of her for that as well.

What saddens me in that blog....is that the author admits to "PUMMEL"ING her children with feminist rhetoric.

Why would you FORCE your beliefs on your children? If this blog had been written by a fundamentalist Christian....they would be called an abuser and people would be demanding that her children be taken away from her.

Worst of all, you subject your 7 YEAR OLD SON to this "pummel"ing of rhetoric and views. How sad to emasculate your son at such a young age, by ramming your twisted views down his throat. By doing this, you are teaching your son that his worth in this world is diminished and not needed, while you prop your daughter's worth as invaluable.

You are a sad sad parent. And by ramming this down their throat at every turn and in every situation, you are breeding a situation where later in life your children resent you and will do anything to get away from your anger and hate.

I wouldn't be able to live with my daughter resenting me for anything. I'll do anything in support of her to make sure she captures and masters every dream she has ever had. But I refuse to turn her into an instant victim if she doesn't get picked first.

My daughter has been taught since she was very young, that no matter how hard you work, or try.......you won't always get what want or desire. That there are times that someone, regardless of race or gender, who will get picked in front of you. And that is the REALITY of life.

I wouldn't worry too much, debra. Put her in any public school, and she'll be a committed man hater within a couple of weeks. And, she'll learn to vote straight democrat as an added bonus.

Debra,
Google this: The Rockfellers created feminism for women to fight against their men so the New World Order (global elites) can go after your child, your family, and you. They cannot control your family if your family is united. They need to get the men out of the way. Jesus: "A house divided against itself cannot stand" When enough families are broken up, then there will be a new world order as given by George H Bush's speech--that's total global enslavement! (5-10 years?) Watch Alex Jones' Endgame

Little girls acting like little girls should. WE'VE GOT TO STOP THAT!

Anyone that has a little girl knows they are different from boys. My 1 yr old girl caresses and washes her baby doll while her brother was ripping arms off stuff at the same age.

Get over it already. Men are stronger. Every notable invention has been produced by a man. Men reside predominantly at the high end of the IQ curve (as well at the bottom, while the ladies cluster around the 100 average). Most great works of art have come from Men. Men have crafted civilization. Without men, or replacing with a neutered version, all of the luxuries and amenities that you take for granted would disappear.

Women out there should realize that you are not equal to men is many respects, and never will be. And never could be. WE ARE DIFFERENT!. And so what! Many men aren't equal to other men. Women have talents that men do not have, and those should be utilized. Yes that means motherhood and being a good wife.

Women are not "bad asses" and men laugh at those that think they are. Misogynist? No, just historically literate.

It is amazing the lengths that a feminist will go to change a fish into a horse and then look on aghast as the thing flops around the race track. Nature happens. Women were built to nurture and men to protect. Ducks fly, fish swim, and feminists attempt in vain to subvert the natural order. This is actually *VERY* amusing to the rest of us who actually have a clue. So keep it up ladies... good humor isn't just an ice cream.

"I pummel her and her 7-year-old brother with feminist analysis of every medium they encounter, from billboards to story books to cereal boxes."

You are a sick puppy and you are helping to destroy society.

When you have swept every part of our traditional foundations away then Islam will move in on a defensless nation and your daughter will be wearing the veil.

And tell me how often women actually do save the day.

I don't see it except in films.

Great post. Important post. Particularly creepy how we seem (I think) more culturally at-peace with the presence of these kinds of messages in children's media than in adult-oriented media.

These post make me ashamed to be male. I am sorry to any woman out there who is getting the wrong impression of our gender. We are not all scared of the fact that a women's place is no longer (and never should have been) in the home. Those who try and hide behind faith show how hollow it is, those behind science show a lack of understanding of darwin natural selection (trust me I am doing my PhD on evolution her daughter's net reproductive rate will be not be influenced on her level of female impowerment).

I sit hear thinking about the powerful women in my life, my mother one of the funniest and toughest people I've ever met, my girlfriend who combines beauty and intelligence in a way that never fails to amaze me, the many women in my lab who are smarter , more resourceful than I. The myriad of women on the varsity (highschool and university)wrestling teams I've been on, ask any male wrestler and they'll tell you that when women fight it is much more intense and violent than thier male conterpart (so much for the fragile, weak, dimure sex huh).All these women are equal to any man, but had to work harder to prove it. Now while I think sometimes a cigar is just a cigar (or in this case a who is just a who)the message of Debra's post is correct, we are still teaching women that being second class is acceptable. Its a shame that we might never get over this mental block that while the two genders are different in the overall balence we are equal.

wow, big bill, can you read? the author already has two kids. idiots like you mistakenly believe that feminism means saying that women are better than men; wrong, it only says that men and women are equal and that gender roles can be destructive to both sexes.

did anyone else notice how the traits that are seen as being "good" are all "male" traits, such as strength, action, drive. women possess these traits too, so why are they seen as male traits? and what's wrong with "female" traits such as compassion and caring anyway? shouldn't human beings have both sets of traits? otherwise, we would be incomplete and not fully human. natural selection made it so that both men and women have these traits, so ignoring them is actually be going against nature. so feminists are only adhering to to the demands and gifts of nature.

what kind of a demented person thinks that it's best for girls and boys to not possess and express fully half of their traits and abiltities; that robs them of living a full life and living up to their full potential.

only cave men like you think that feminists hate men. look around - most, if not all women, are feminists, whether they realize or will admit it or not. why do cave men like you get so defensive around feminists? what are you so afraid of?

and it's actually the cave men who will die out; women are the ones who are needed for reprodction more than men are and if men don't conform to what women want, and as women's starndards become more realistic as the patriarical brainwashing melts away, women won't be putting up with cave men like you. and in case you haven't noticed, ideas and beliefs live on even as people die. natutral selection is when you are put at the mercy of nature; personal freedom and choices is far from natural selection.

contrary to cave men like you, many men are looking for an equal partner who has her own personality, fire, dreams, goals, and actions. a weak, agreeable drone is boring to anyone with an ounce of self-esteem. studies have found that men who are married to feminists are happier and have more sex. where have you been? feminists are hot and men, real men, love them.

loverwhy,

And tell me how often men actually save the day?

I don't see it except in films. In real life, men are always creating war, commmitting genocide, and doing all sorts of other ridiculous and destructive things in order to sooth and boost their own pathetic egos.

wow...feminism the end of family? where do you people come up with this crap?

god forbid two healthy individuals come together in an equal partnership. the end of civilazation as we know it.

zeke,

and women laugh at men who are so insecure and unhappy that they have to insult women or any other group in order to feel better about themselves.

nothing you said was clever or original and all of your lame statements are easily discredible.

get a life.

You go, Mom! Maybe you can make your kids as cynical as yourself. Poor feminists...ever the victims of the grand male conspiracy.

Southwest Airlines "wanna get away" campaign has a couple ads where the person who goofs up is actually a black woman!

A sad commentary, indeed. This little girl is doing what is normal for young girls, and the author is trying to force it out of her. What a shame. Girls are girls and boys are boys, and kids KNOW THIS. They know they are different - it's the adults that are telling them that there is no difference. Guys can do some things that girls can't, and girls do things that guys can't. It is the way it is - get over it! Feminism has done so much to erode the family and traditional values. Many kids born in the 80's are going back to traditional values because they have seen the failure of the "you can have it all" mantra.

Wow - lots of viciously knee-jerk reactionaries on this board. I wonder which right-wing echo chambers have linked to this article? Judging from the mix of angry misogynists, near-illiterate biological determinists and fundamentalist-Christian nationalists, I'm gonna guess Limbaugh, Free Republic and one of the home-schooler's sites.

Anybody else care to hazard a guess? This could be the great new party game of 2008.

I read half of the thread and skipped to the end. You feminists are nuts. I can only shake my head. Most of you take prescription drugs to deal with the anguish you feel as you try to be men and fight your feminine nature because of what television has taught you. And it IS television that has shaped your identity.
I can only laugh when I read that most of you think women are portrayed as inferior in popular culture. What world do you live in? Every time I turn on the TV, there is a 115 pound model beating up a 250 pound man with spin kicks, or snarling and shooting men.
This has only been on TV for about 20 years.
You should be happy that your daughter is behaving naturally and hasn't been ruined yet. There is still hope.

When I said every time I turn on the TV I see skinny women beating up men and shooting them, I forgot to mention all of the women with shoulder pad suits making sarcastic cracks and bossing men around in offices. Haha. What a world.

How does being a feminist ruin a young girl? My mother is a feminist, my girlfriend is a feminist, many of my close friends are feminist and I'm a feminist (although I am a man)and all of us are completely happy, functional people. I would be extremely pleased if any daughter I choose to have someday tells me "daddy I get to save you now" when were playing. If you can't see that women are our equals you are lost my friend.

Joe the shoulder pads are because many men will be dismissive and attempt to intemidate women if they do not percive them as a physical equal. Much like you did to the "nerds" in highschool (those same people you know who are kind of running the world now)if you can't keep up with them mentally you try physical tactics. (oh and joe before you ask, i'm a 200lbs male who loves weight lifting, sports and violent movies so don't try and say that Im not a "real man". Attempting to physically intemidate someone isn't a sign of your superiority, its the last refuge for the scared little boys who know deep down they can't compete)

Also Joe have you ever done a combat sport with women? I ask because after almost a decade of wrestling and some martial arts i can tell you women can and will beat up much larger male opponents. Also on tv I see an american spy torturing reliable information out of people regardless of the fact that study after study and the majority of experts in the field will tell you torture doesn't work. TV is fiction Joe, hate to break it to you.

Leticia - you wrote: It is important for young girls to learn or know, that, one of the role of boys/prince in life amongst other, is to save/protect or take care of his girl/princess and not otherwise.

If we teach girls this, they will be sadly disappointed. We need to teach our daughters to grow up confident, strong, self-sufficient and independent - so they don't NEED a man for anything. So they KNOW an EQUAL partner when they see one and NEED nothing but perhaps true love. I am not anyone's "princess" - Besides that, I execute a mean snap kick and have a formidable right hook. I have been my husband's equal for 12 years. We protect each other. We support each other. Yet, we are also strong and independent on our own. I did not go looking for my "prince". I found an equal and beloved partner to go through life with. I can only wish the same for a daughter, or any woman, for that matter.

Was this in the April fool's edition of MoFo, er, Mojo?!

VERY scary if the author's "thoughts" actually reflect the actions of someone raising kids.

Funny, I am a man and not a feminist one. I have never "harangued" my daughter or son with feminist messages. I have simply raised them like people. Somehow my daughter age eight has managed to be strong, independent and confident. She is an excellent martial artist, a skilled dancer, a good soccer player and a great cook who wants to be either a chef or ballerina and is not just pipe dreaming about either.
My son, age five, despite being raised in a very unfeminist manner is sensitive, creative, and kind. He is friends with many girls and plays dolls with them at times because it never occurs to him that he shouldn't. He is respectful of his female playmates because we have taught him how to be a gentleman. He is also athletic and very much a boy.
Perhaps making gender issues a priority with young children is counterproductive. Maybe it is better to focus on the childs dreams and interests, teach them to be respectful of others and not worry about indoctrinating them with feminism.

So let's apply some other viewpoint: The 96 daughters had all of them the love of their father just because they were girls. The son, in the other hand, had to EARN it.

Kirkbrew, I just have to say that Mormons were suffragists before feminism was even a gleam in your Welesleyan fore-mothers' eyes. Do get a grip.

Kirkbrew, could I just mention that Mormons were woemn's suffragists before feminism was even a gleam in your Welesleyan fore-mothers' eyes. Please do get a grip. Not everything fits into your cookie-cutter world bigotry.

eviltwit,

I totally agree with you ... and my best wishes and congratulations! ... to your happy and complete balanced partnership.

"to learn or know" is not implementing.

Let me say it in this form ...

Anecdote:

Office scene:
My husband and I had discussion about an operational tactics in our business operation, of which, I stated to be loud and precise with facts that was to be done, with my last toned words:
"There is no other solution, you have to do it the way I am telling you to do"
which was answered by my husband with a bass tone:
"ok, you are right, I will do it"
going and murmuring ... and the same time, my eldest daughter, she was 8 years old at that time, came in from school without my notice saying:
"I am right, I had been thinking and observing about it the whole time, you are the boss mummy ... you are the boss!"
to my surprise, stood up closed the door and said calmly;
"Baby, please sit down"
which she did staring at me. I moved and half kneed in front of her and touch h