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Gay by Choice? The Science of Sexual Identity

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But some activists are more reluctant than Besen to rely on this line of reasoning. "One thing I find troubling within the gay community is a lot of people feel if they can make that claim strongly enough that's going to give them equal rights," Sean Cahill, former director of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force Policy Institute, told me. "But I don't think it really matters," he says, pointing out that believing that sexual orientation is biological doesn't cause one to support gay rights. Indeed, many social scientists think that the beliefs are merely correlated, that people who hold one tend to hold the other.

Some gay rights lawyers point out that whatever biology's role in sexual orientation, it should not be legally paramount. The Supreme Court has ruled that the immutability of a group's identifying characteristics is one of the criteria that entitle it to heightened protection from discrimination (and some cases establishing gay rights were decided in part on those grounds), but, according to Suzanne Goldberg, director of the Sexuality and Gender Law Clinic at Columbia Law School, there's a far more fundamental reason for courts to protect gay people. "Sexual orientation does not bear on a person's ability to contribute to society," she notes. "We don't need the science to make that point." Jon Davidson, legal director of Lambda Legal, agrees, adding that if courts are going to ask about immutability, they shouldn't focus on biology. Instead they should focus on how sexual orientation is so deeply woven into a person's identity that it is inseparable from who they are. In this respect, Davidson says, sexual orientation is like another core aspect of identity that is clearly not biological in origin: religion. "It doesn't matter whether you were born that way, it came later, or you chose," he says. "We don't think it's okay to discriminate against people based on their religion. We think people have a right to believe whatever they want. So why do we think that about religion and not about who we love?"

Cahill—who says he doesn't think he was born gay—points out that even if it is crucial for public support, essentialism has a dark side: the remedicalization of homosexuality, this time as a biological condition that can be treated. Michael Bailey, a Northwestern University psychologist who has conducted some of the key studies of the genetics of sexual orientation, infuriated the gay and lesbian community with a paper arguing that, should prenatal markers of homosexuality be identified, parents ought to have the right to abort potentially gay fetuses. "It's reminiscent of eugenicist theories," Cahill tells me. "If it's seen as an undesirable trait, it could lead in some creepy directions." These could include not only abortion, but also gene therapy or modulating uterine hormone levels to prevent the birth of a gay child.

Psychology professor Lisa Diamond may have the best reason of all for activists to shy away from arguing that homosexuality is inborn and immutable: It's not exactly true. She doesn't dispute the findings that show a biological role in sexual orientation, but she thinks far too much is made of them. "The notion that if something is biological, it is fixed—no biologist on the planet would make that sort of assumption," she told me from her office at the University of Utah. Not only that, she says, but the research—which is conducted almost exclusively on men—hinges on a very narrow definition of sexual orientation: "It's what makes your dick go up. I think most women would disagree with that definition," she says, not only because it obviously excludes them, but because sexual orientation is much more complex than observable aspects of sexuality. "An erection is an erection," she says, "but we have almost no information about what is actually going on in terms of the subjective experience of desire."

Diamond has spent the last 12 years doing her part to fill in this gap by following a group of 79 women who originally described themselves as nonheterosexual, and she's found that sexual orientation is much more fluid than activists like Besen believe. "Contrary to this notion that gay people struggle with their identity in childhood and early adolescence, then come out and ride off into the sunset," she says, "the more time goes on, the more variability comes out. Women change their identities and find their attractions changing." In the first year of her study, 43 percent of her subjects identified themselves as lesbian, 30 percent as bisexual, and 27 percent as unlabeled. By year 10, those percentages had changed significantly: 30 percent said they were lesbian, 29 percent said they were bisexual, 22 percent wouldn't label themselves, and 7 percent said they were now straight (the remaining 12 percent had left the study). Across the entire group, Diamond found that only 58 percent of her subjects' sexual partners were women; in year eight, even the women who identified as lesbians reported that between 10 and 20 percent of their sexual partners were men. Diamond concludes that the categorization of women into gay, straight, and bisexual misses an important fact: that they move back and forth among these categories, and that the fluidity that allows them to do so is as crucial a variable in sexual development as their orientation.

Diamond cautions that it's important not to confuse plasticity—the capacity for sexual orientation to change—with choice—the ability to change it at will. "Trying to change your attractions doesn't work very well, but you can change the structure of your social life, and that might lead to changes in the feelings you experience." This is a time-honored way of handling unwanted sexual feelings, she points out. "Jane Austen made a career out of this: People fall in love with a person of the wrong social class. What do you do? You get yourself out of those situations." For the women in Diamond's study who tell her, "'I hate straight society, I don't want to be straight,'" Austen's solution is an effective treatment for unwanted other-sex attraction. "If you're around women all the time and you are never around men, you are probably going to be more attracted to women," she says. Such women sometimes end up falling in love with women, and their sexual feelings follow. And it can work the other way, Diamond says: Women who identify themselves as gay or bisexual sometimes find themselves, to their own surprise, in love with men with whom they then become sexual partners. Indeed, she says, "love has no sexual orientation."



 

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Same-sex attraction and sexuality are natural phenomena, which is perfectly clear given the behavior of thousands of other species, including most higher primates. What's at issue is how many people with same-sex attraction are 100% gay. And, likewise, how many people with OPPOSITE-sex attraction are 100% straight. Little research has disproven Kinsey's groundbreaking studies about attraction and desire. But because of Americans' needs to put things into neat little boxes, the idea that most humans are capable of attraction to both sexes is very frightening indeed. I certainly don't doubt that there are people with no attraction to one sex or the other, but I also think that people who behave exclusively straight or gay for social pressure reasons, rather than actual orientation, are far more numerous than anyone currently admits. We've been looking at the orientation question from the wrong angles, when trying to prove or disprove its "natural" origins. People are trying to figure out what "causes" same-sex attraction. I think the research is far better aimed at figuring out what "causes" a lack of attraction to one sex or the other. Not to pathologize it, but to understand it. Instead of the idea of a heteronormative state with homosexuality as the anomaly, we should be looking at a binormative state with both heterosexuality and homosexuality as the anomalies. This is especially true for women, who have been proven to have very flexible orientation. Personally, I think women's orientation has always been flexible (in general.) It's only because social acceptance of same-sex sexuality in women has increased that it is becoming more common. If we accept same-sex sexuality in males, the same should happen there. Regardless of how much of orientation and sexual behavior we can attribute to genes or environment, it should remain perfectly legal. The one thing that no science--however marginally legitimate--has been able to prove is that same-sex relationships and sexuality are in any way socially or psychologically damaging. Every ounce of damage all comes from the social stigma surrounding it. In cultures that accept same-sex sexuality, instances of STDs, substance abuse and depression among gay and bi folks are far lower. Take religion out of science--as it should be for every subject--and the answer to all of this is perfectly clear: whether nature, nuture, choice or a combination thereof, there's no reason to legally restrict same-sex relationships and sexuality.
Posted by:TalAugust 27, 2007 2:41:25 PMRespond ^
Critics like to claim that attempting to change one's sexual orientation puts one at risk for depression and even suicide. There no doubt have been those who have pursued change for the wrong reasons, or in the wrong ways, and thereby have inadvertently increased the internal conflict and struggle rather than decreasing it. These are unfortunate cases, but what do they prove? Only that that particular therapy or ministry was not helpful or appropriate for those particular individuals at the time. It doesn't prove that they are not helpful to or appropriate for anyone ever -- any more than the grumblings of a few lapsed Catholics would "prove" that Catholicism is harmful to all. Especially when there is significant evidence of others who benefit. http://www.myspace.com/freedomispossible
Posted by:DavidAugust 27, 2007 3:22:32 PMRespond ^
Whether anyone accepts/likes it or not, the truth ignored by both camps referenced in this piece is that we have a creator who has tagged homosexual sex acts as an abominable sin. I makes no difference why someone engages in homosexual sex acts, scientifically speaking. The fact that they do can never be justified by psychology or biology. What is more, no culture of man has the right to decide that sex acts forbidden by God are perfectly alright. God did not create sex for our indiscriminate use as a recreational sport, or to satisfy an unbridled sexual appetite with anyone who happens to arouse desire in us. He created sex exclusively for the marriage bed of a man and his wife. All other sex is sin, including extra-marital sex, pre-marital sex, and casual sex with others of the same gender, consensual or otherwise. It is not an issue to be "resolved" by genetic or psychological study. It has already been resolved by Him who made us in the first place, and who identifies all sex outside of marriage as sin. In short, what people do with their bodies is a moral choice they make, regardless of any predispositions, attractions, or so called orientations they use to excuse and justify their sexual behavior. These are the facts, as revealed to us by Him who created us and gave us free will to choose our destiny. He will not judge anybody on the basis of 'orientation', but will rather judge us all on the basis of the choices we make, including how we choose to conduct ourselves sexually.
Posted by:BruceAugust 27, 2007 6:06:30 PMRespond ^
Bruce, the idea that the bible represents a god's desires is really silly. Think about it, what would you expect a book written by an omniscient being to be like? Wouldn't you expect it to fill you with awe, to amaze you page after page with unknowable insights and profoundly useful knowledge, facts no human could ever know? Wouldn't you expect it to be worlds apart from any human writing you've ever seen? You know in your heart that the bible's not like that, its filled with hatred, violence, zenophobia, factual and geographical errors, contradictions, absurdities, and things that don't exist - it reads exactly like one would expect it to read if written by primitive bronze age tribesmen, because that's who DID write it. Think about it, the idea that a just and loving god would create imperfect people knowing they would fail to find him and his religion a convincing idea and that that god would then torture them eternally for it is an impossibility. A god that tortures and kills his innocent self to appease himeself in order to overlook the wrongdoings of others is a patently absurd idea. A just and loving god that tortures and kills the innocent Jesus for wrongdoings Jesus is not responsible for simply cannot exist. The fact of the matter is morality is a matter of how we treat others. The essence of morality is do whatever you want, but hurt no one. Gays in a loving relationship are hurting no one and by definition are behaving morally. Those who would interfere in those relationships for their own trivial psychological pleasure are by defintion behaving immorally.
Posted by:Randi SchimnoskyAugust 27, 2007 8:41:46 PMRespond ^
Hmmm, Bruce's argument makes sense, except for the fact that there exists no evidence anywhere of any kind of God or supreme being -- let alone one which despises homosexuality.
Posted by:StuartAugust 27, 2007 8:47:43 PMRespond ^
"Whether anyone accepts/likes it or not, the truth ignored by both camps referenced in this piece is that we have a creator who has tagged homosexual sex acts as an abominable sin." The problem with that statement above is god is a fairy tale and gay people are real, and real is always going to win out over fake in the long run.
Posted by:RobertAugust 28, 2007 8:48:26 AMRespond ^
Randi and Stuart, First allow me to preface my commentary by saying that there is so much more to a gay person than just his or her sexuality. They, like all of us, have been created in the image of God and are no less loved by God than any other human being. The True God, God in Christ, is a God of love, not hate. What God hates is sin which is present in all of us, whether it be in the form of sexual immorality, pride or a "white" lie. I find that people who come to the table with presuppositions such as yours regarding God and the Bible actually have never read the Bible in its entirety. To discuss it in any meaningful way you should at least read it with a heart that wants to seek and know God. If you do read it, you will see that God has revealed who He is in the person of Jesus Christ. His death on the cross was not meaningless nor was it orchestrated by a cruel, hateful God. God Himself, in the person of Christ, laid his life down for all of us willingly because there is no other way for human beings to come into a right relationship with God. We were created to know Him and to have a relationship with Him but our sin has separated us from Him. We must repent and believe the gospel. As for Stuart's comment regarding evidence, I submit that there is evidence all around us of a loving God. He has revealed it to us in nature which He created, the Bible which is His Word and in the person of Jesus Christ His Son, who not only fulfilled Old Testament prophecy concerning Messiah but validated the authenticity of the scriptures during His earthly ministry. Jesus Christ is by the way, an objective historical fact. There is a plethora of objective historical evidence to the Christian faith. It is not blind but based on fact. One does not have to commit intellectual suicide to become a Christian. How about origins? When you talk about evidence for God's existence, you must also consider the origin of the Universe. There cannot be an uncaused cause. How did the universe come into existence? Here's another example - can you see gravity? No, of course not but we can see its effects. Foolish is the man who says he doesn't believe in gravity and feels he can jump off a roof and survive. Likewise, the fool says in his heart "there is no God." Life is far too complex to have just come about randomly. We are not just products of some protoplasmic slime pool. There is a purpose and meaning to life which the Bible reveals. If we all do our own thing, that is, if we do not believe in a God to whom we are accountable, the ultimate culturual end is anarchy; the ultimate spiritual end is Hell. Relativism is a very slippery sloap. Ideas have consequences. You can see the results of atheistic thinking in the ideology of Stalin and Lennin or a perverted understanding of God and His Word as with in the life of Hitler and the Nazi reign. The fact is there is a God to whom we are all accountable, whether you like it or not. Some things are true even if you don't believe them. It behooves you to investigate all the facts and the claims of Christ and the Bible before you and Randi make assertions like the ones you made. I reiterate, God is a God of love. He loves the gay person as well as the straight but He hates sin and cannot bear to look upon it because He is altogether Holy. Therefore, none of us could stand before Him unless we accept the gift of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. Homosexuality, like adultery, like a lie, like stealing, is a sin. Despite all the research, the scientific community has yet to come up with a gay gene. I say to the gay person, if you truly surrender to the Lordship of Christ, He will set you free. To Randi and Stuart, I say, don't be afraid to open your heart to Christ. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain. Start reading the Bible; the gospel of John is a good place to start and may God open the eyes of your heart.
Posted by:Eleni RigualAugust 28, 2007 9:29:32 AMRespond ^
Randi, You were right about one thing for which I failed to give you credit, the Bible was written by men. Those men however wrote as they were superintended by God. Contrary to your assertion however, they were not primitive bronze age tribesmen; they were intelligent, rational human beings and moreover, eyewitnesses to God's majesty and grace. They wrote as they were directed by the Holy Spirit. One final point, God does not have to stand at the bar of your reason. He is God. Your view of Him is too small. You want a god you are comfortable with, that fits into your definition of what he should be like and that my friend may or may not have negative consequences for you in this life but most assuredly horrific and unimaginable consequences for you in the life to come.
Posted by:Eleni RigualAugust 28, 2007 1:11:35 PMRespond ^
I my self was born in the house of god. But after some time. I didn't get it. Why is it wrong to gay,bi,les.After sometime I stop and make my own path. I like to know even now. How can you hate someone because who they love. I myself think same sex or not. Love is love why do you hate people for loving someone. I have many friends that are gay,les and bi. And they are all happy. And they never don't care what anyone said about it. I think god made us. To love each other. Not hate or dislike someone only because of there sexual ways. If I'm with a man or a women. I know that noting I do is wrong. Because what I feel is real. God as noting to do with it. And you can't say that we are sinning because we are with someone the same sex. Because if its sin being with the person you love. This world be in chaos. Who ever you love man or women. Don't let anyone put you down. You are your own person. No one can take that from you.
Posted by:Maya MisakiAugust 28, 2007 5:09:57 PMRespond ^
Bible believer or not. The question is about the civil rights of homosexuals under the United States Constitution. Biological or not. Religious freedom is protected and so should the homosexual who believes differently than the usual evangelical christian. Any questions?
Posted by:ShannonAugust 28, 2007 5:27:29 PMRespond ^
Eleni said "I find that people who come to the table with presuppositions such as yours regarding God and the Bible actually have never read the Bible in its entirety." Sounds to me like you're the one who's never read the bible, I have and I would never have believed it could so totally disgrace itself and Christianity, it depicts one of the most despicable, hateful characters in all of fiction. The book is totally nonsensical and totally unbelievable as the supposed work of an omnisicent being. It reads exactly like one would expect the work of primitive bronze age bigots to read. Eleni said "God Himself, in the person of Christ, laid his life down for all of us willingly because there is no other way for human beings to come into a right relationship with God.". Preposterous. He's supposed to be God!He's supposed to be all powerful, god can do ANYTHING, remember?! Your god most certainly didn't need to commit the evil act of killing the innocent Jesus for wrongs of others Jesus has no responsibility for - the foundation of your religion is crazy, its simply too crazy to be true. Eleni said "Jesus Christ is by the way, an objective historical fact.". You're used to believing things without any evidence, that's why you're a Christian. Fact is there are no historical accounts of Jesus apart from the bible, he was a fictional character. Eleni said "When you talk about evidence for God's existence, you must also consider the origin of the Universe. There cannot be an uncaused cause.". So what caused your god then?! If you believe your logic you still have the same problem with god - who caused your god? There can be no uncaused cause, remember?! If you say your god just always existed then it makes just as much sense to say the universe always existed. Eleni said "There is a purpose and meaning to life which the Bible reveals". There is nothing in that book that remotely even begins to redeem it for the hatred and evil in it. Your "god" demands that the Jews invade others lands and slaughter them all without mercy whether or not the inhabitants try and make a peace treaty. Your god demands that innocent women, children, and babies be killed - see Deuteronomy 7:2. What kind of "god" does that? An evil dispicable one, that's what kind Eleni. Eleni said "God is a God of love. He loves the gay person." An outrageous lie, you obviously haven't read that hate filled bible of yours where god orders or carries ou the torture and murder of millions of innocent people. A loving god doesn't allow belief in him and his religon of choice to be questionable and then eternally torture people for innocently believing otherwise. Your thinking is incredibly twisted Eleni, you obviously haven't either read the bible or given it any objective thought. A loving god wouldn't eternally torture gay people for having a loving, nurturing, beneficial and harmless same sex relationship. Don't give me this crap about a loving god - I'm not remotely that stupid or ignorant, I've read your bible, apparently unlike you. Eleni said "Homosexuality, like adultery, like a lie, like stealing, is a sin.". How dare you equate a loving nurturing harmless relationship with things that hurt others?! You are one despicable person. The essence of morality is do whatever you want, but harm no one. Gays in loving committed relationships hurt no one and are by definition moral. You try to deprive gay couples of what is good and beautiful, your actions are by defintion immoral. Eleni said "the Bible was written by men. Those men however wrote as they were superintended by God". Don't be absurd Eleni, the bible contains nothing that ordinary humans couldn't have known and much that a god would not have gotten wrong but that primitive bigots would and did, like the sun revolving around the earth, or a "firmament" holding up the skys which are filled with stars which are just little dots of light that can fall to the earth and be held in the palm of your hand. Face it the only reason your a Christian is the accident of geography of your birth, do you honestly think that if you'd been born in Iran you'd be a Christian?! Eleni said "You want a god you are comfortable with, that fits into your definition of what he should be like and that my friend may or may not have negative consequences for you in this life but most assuredly horrific and unimaginable consequences for you in the life to come." Oooo, I'm sooo scared - your big bad sky daddy is going to get me...Eleni, you're sadly mistaken, I don't want a god of any sort, such simply does not exist. I fart in your god's general direction. There's never been any evidence of the supernatural, and never will be. Mere words written on paper aren't evidence of anything, one can write whatever lie they want on paper and it proves nothing. You have no more reason to believe the bible is true than you do to believe the Koran or Hinduism's holy texts are true. All three are loaded with mistakes, ignorance, and craziness because they all share the nature of religions, it is the nature of religions to be made up. There have been thousands of religions over the millenia and at best only one of them might be true and the odds are at best thousands to one that its yours. There's just as much evidence for the existence of Leprechauns, Zeus, Thor, and Apollo as your god, what reason do you have to believe in Jesus and not them? None.
Posted by:Randi SchimnoskyAugust 28, 2007 6:41:03 PMRespond ^
Someone has been duplicating my last post, apparently they didn't like what I said but can't refute it, LOL.
Posted by:Randi SchimnoskyAugust 28, 2007 6:49:07 PMRespond ^
Randi,your definition of morality is that a person can do whatever he wants, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. By your definition, if a Christian has chosen to accept Christ as his Savior and then tell others that they can have eternal life through Christ, he is acting morally. By accepting Christ, he is not hurting anyone. By spreading the Gospel, he is not hurting anyone. While another might intentionally or unintentionally misinterpret Scripture, and thereby take action that hurts someone else, that doesn't make the actions of the first person immoral. Your position is that "Gays in a loving relationship are hurting no one and by definition are behaving morally. Those who would interfere in those relationships for their own trivial psychological pleasure are by defintion (sic) behaving immorally." Your comments are a direct attack - and insult - against the faith of Christians. You are basing your attacks upon your definition of morality, and seem to take great "psychological pleasure" in ridiculing those believers. As for your assertion that there are no historical records of Jesus existence outside the Bible, you are mistaken. Tacitus, in Book XV of his annals, records the death of Christ by crucifixion. "Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus . . ." There are also very early references to Christians in the letters exchanged between Pliny the Younger and Trajan. (eg. Letter XCVII et seq). Take a look at the writings of Josephus: Antiquities 18.3.3. "Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct to this day." There are other early references to Jesus, or Christ. Obviously, you are free to choose what to believe, but before adopting a definition of morality or attacking people's fundamental beliefs, I encourage you to think through the logical results of your definition, and engage in some research (with an open mind).
Posted by:ToddAugust 29, 2007 4:55:21 AMRespond ^
Randi, I agree with Todd who is correct about the extrabiblical historic sources you can check out for yourself regarding Jesus Christ. There's so much to say on the subject but not enough room here. Randi, we all want to be loved and accepted, whether we're gay or straight. Jesus loves you no matter who you are, what you did or are doing. Come to Him and lay your burdens down. He wants to set you free. The fact is that we were all created with a capacity to know and love God so our hearts are truly restless until they find their rest in Him. There's nothing in this world - money, sex or any material thing that will truly satisfy us - only the love of Christ. But ,we must come to Him on His terms not ours; that is to repent and believe the gospel.
Posted by:Eleni RigualAugust 29, 2007 7:15:38 AMRespond ^
I agree with Shannon. This is a question of civil rights. We do not live in a theocracy. The "founding fathers" wanted Americans to have religious freedom and the separation of Church and State. Sexual orientation should be viewed in the same way as religious freedom. This article was very good in articulating the gray areas that exist in the argument. I agree that sexuality is mysterious and there are no clear cut categories, but how do you make an argument for gay rights without these clear cut medical science, nature/nurture arguments? How do you frame the debate in our world of sound bites? I think it really comes down to framing. Without the medical science argument, where do we go from here to argue for equal rights? I think that my home state of Massachusetts did this very well in defeating an attempt to place gay marriage on the ballot. This measure would have divided the state and cost a lot of money to defend. The argument became that the state constitution should give people rights and not take them away. We should not vote to take people's rights away. They did not focus on the medical science argument in their advertising. This worked well here, but I'm not sure you could use the same argument in the South or Midwest. Any other thoughts??? On a side note, I am a Christian, and I am embarassed by Bruce, Eleni, and Todd and all the other fundamentalists. This is really not the place to be evangelizing. We are trying to have an important debate about real people who have limited civil rights in this county. I don't think you are going to bring anyone into the Christian faith with these posts. You only trivalize the Christian faith, the Jesus you worship (who appears to be different from the Jesus I worship), and the argument. Lets have some real discussions about this issue instead of being sidelined by the Right Wingers.
Posted by:BethAugust 29, 2007 11:08:24 AMRespond ^
Beth, please explain how my post was "evangelizing?" There was no effort on my part to convince anyone that they should believe in Christ. The post was an argument that a Christian could use to respond to Randi's definition of morality. While the article is about nature/nurture and the science of homosexuality, Randi made several ad hominem attacks against the Christian faith and Christians. Why does this type of debate have to degenerate into personal attacks with titles such as "right wingers?" As for your wish to have sexual orientation given the same freedom as religion, there is specific reference in the constitution to the free exercise of religion. It is silent on the issue of sexuality. I don't think a post here is going to change anyone's opinion as to what factors have an effect on a person's sexuality, or to change anyone's faith (if any). Perhaps these posts will encourage people to look at the issues more objectively, and not based upon a prejudice against a particular group of people, be they homosexual, straight, Christian or atheist.
Posted by:ToddAugust 29, 2007 11:41:03 AMRespond ^
Todd, those are bold faced lies promulagated by Christians to prop up support for the false idea that Jesus was a historical figure. As Josepheus was born in 37 CE and Tacitus was born in 55 CE they couldn't have been contemporaries and eyewitnesses of Jesus. More problematic for the supposed account of Jesus by Josepheus is that Josepheus lived and died as a Jew. That he would claim Jesus was the Messiah and never have converted to Christianity simply isn't believable. The story of Jesus is intrusive in Josephus' narrative and can be seen to be an interpolation even in an English translation of the Greek text. Right after the wondrous passage quoted, Josephus goes on to say, "About the same time also another sad calamity put the Jews into disorder..." Josephus had previously been talking about awful things Pilate had done to the Jews in general, and one can easily understand why an interpolator would have chosen this particular spot. But his ineptitude in not changing the wording of the bordering text left a "literary seam" (what rhetoricians might term aporia) that sticks out like a pimpled nose. Moreover, the disputed passage was never cited by early Christian apologists such as Clement of Alexandria (ca.150-ca. 215 CE), who certainly would have made use of such ammunition had he had it! The first person to make mention of this obviously forged interpolation into the text of Josephus' history was the church father Eusebius, in 324 CE. It is quite likely that Eusebius himself did some of the forging. As late as 891, Photius in his Bibliotheca, which devoted three "Codices" to the works of Josephus, shows no awareness of the passage whatsoever even though he reviews the sections of the Antiquities in which one would expect the disputed passage to be found. Clearly, the testimonial was absent from his copy of Antiquities of the Jews. 13 The question can probably be laid to rest by noting that as late as the sixteenth century, according to Rylands, 14 a scholar named Vossius had a manuscript of Josephus from which the passage was wanting. Regarding the bit you quoted from Tacitus, ignoring the fact that he could not have been a contemporary of Jesus due to his much later birth: [Tacitus wrote] at a time when Christians themselves had come to believe that Jesus had suffered under Pilate. There are three reasons for holding that Tacitus is here simply repeating what Christians had told him. First, he gives Pilate a title, procurator [without saying procurator of what! FRZ], which was current only from the second half of the first century. Had he consulted archives which recorded earlier events, he would surely have found Pilate there designated by his correct title, prefect. Second, Tacitus does not name the executed man Jesus, but uses the title Christ (Messiah) as if it were a proper name. But he could hardly have found in archives a statement such as "the Messiah was executed this morning." Third, hostile to Christianity as he was, he was surely glad to accept from Christians their own view that Christianity was of recent origin, since the Roman authorities were prepared to tolerate only ancient cults. (The Historical Evidence for Jesus; p.16). There are further problems with the Tacitus story. Tacitus himself never again alludes to the Neronian persecution of Christians in any of his voluminous writings, and no other Pagan authors know anything of the outrage either. Most significant, however, is that ancient Christian apologists made no use of the story in their propaganda - an unthinkable omission by motivated partisans who were well-read in the works of Tacitus. Clement of Alexandria, who made a profession of collecting just such types of quotations, is ignorant of any Neronian persecution, and even Tertullian, who quotes a great deal from Tacitus, knows nothing of the story. According to Robert Taylor, the author of another freethought classic, the Diegesis (1834), the passage was not known before the fifteenth century, when Tacitus was first published at Venice by Johannes de Spire. Taylor believed de Spire himself to have been the forger. While Pliny the Younger may have talked of Christians he made no mention of Jesus and neither did any of the 38 writers listed here from the time or shortly after the time of the supposed Jesus. http://englishatheist.org/indexz31.shtml That a magical being performed miracles and was a major political figure and none of these writers saw him as significant enough to mention is simply unbelievable - Jesus never existed. Todd, your welcome and moral to follow your religion as long as you aren't hurting others. When you try to convince people gays are wrongdoers for simply being in a loving committed same sex relationship you are harming those people. When you tell people that gays deserve to be eternally tortured you are creating a hostile environment towards gays that some can and will use to justify violence against gays, or at the very least denying gays equal rights such as the same protection religious people have in anti-discrimination laws or heterosexuals have to marry the one person they love most. To suggest that I'm hurting you in kind by pointing out the harm you do to gays simply doesn't wash. Demonizing gays and trying to deny them equal rights doesn't provide you with any significant benefit beyond some trivial cheap psychological thrill which you certainly can do without. But, for example your attempt to deny people like me the right to marry the one I love most, or to not be fired from my job for reasons other than job performance (like being gay) are a serious drastically harmful effect on me. Those no way you can even remotely compare the "imposition" not being able to bad mouth gays is to you compared to the huge impact you unjustifiable think you should be able to have on my life. You have the right to control your own life but not the right to control mine. Me marrying the one I love, or having job protection or hate crimes protection doesn't prevent you from living your life in any way you choose, you trying to force me to live according to your whims as a heinous infringement upon my right to live as I choose. You don't like same sex marriages then don't have one, but don't even dream of thinking you have the moral right to control any life other than your own - you don't. The right to freedom of religion also includes the right to freedom from religion.
Posted by:Randi SchimnoskyAugust 29, 2007 12:16:41 PMRespond ^
Beth, it doesn't matter if being gay is a choice or not gays and lesbians still deserve equal rights. Religion is a choice and yet religious people are specifically singled out for special rights in hate crimes, anti-discrimination, and equal access laws. Gays deserve the same rights that religious groups have. Having said that, the article greatly distorts the reality of the so-called ability to change. The Spitzer study quoted looked only at people merely claiming to have changed orientation, its estimated that these were only the best "successes" that Narth was able to find out of an estimated 250,000 people who went through "conversion therapy". Given the number that Spitzer merely thought had changed, this represents a 'success' rate of .02 percent. Spitzer did only telephone interviews with the subjects the majority of whom were employed by "exgay" organizations thus heavily motivated to lie. When asked why he didn't try to verify their stories with lie detectors or penile plethysmographs he stated "Oh, they'd never agree to that." It never seemed to occurr to him that that was because they were lying. Spitzer noted that he had a great deal of difficulty in finding the 200 people merely claiming to have changed, this took him 16 months. Spitzer said himself that he doubted most gay people could change by much a very firm sexual orientation. He said that while the religious right has distorted the results of his study he expects that change is quite rare. Contrary to what the article implied the Spitzer study demonstrated that its virtually impossible for anyone to change their sexual orientation. For more details on the Spitzer study look here: http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_spit.htm
Posted by:Randi SchimnoskyAugust 29, 2007 12:35:56 PMRespond ^
Eleni, I have the most wonderful relationship with the most caring, warm, nutturing, generous and thoughtful man in the world. If you think I'm going to give that up because of the ancient bigotries of primitive bronze age tribesmen's myths you're severely deluded. The essence of morality is do whatever you want, but harm no one. You go live your life however you feel as long as you don't hurt anyone else and leave me to do the same. Stop trying to push absurdities on people like me which we find too preposterous to exist. You know the muslims think you're going to hell to, why should I accept your religion any more than you accept theirs? There's exactly the same proof for there's as yours - face it, the only reason you believe in Christianity is the accident of your geography of birth. If you'd been born in Iran you'd be just as eagerly trying to convert people to Islam. You only believe in Jesus because it was pushed on you from the time you were too young to think logically and reasonably for yourself onwards - you never made a rational decision to believe and it is all obviously a hateful lie.
Posted by:Randi SchimnoskyAugust 29, 2007 12:45:55 PMRespond ^
Beth, please explain how my post was "evangelizing?" There was no effort on my part to convince anyone that they should believe in Christ. The post was an argument that a Christian could use to respond to Randi's definition of morality. While the article is about nature/nurture and the science of homosexuality, Randi made several ad hominem attacks against the Christian faith and Christians. Why does this type of debate have to degenerate into personal attacks with titles such as "right wingers?" As for your wish to have sexual orientation given the same freedom as religion, there is specific reference in the constitution to the free exercise of religion. It is silent on the issue of sexuality. I don't think a post here is going to change anyone's opinion as to what factors have an effect on a person's sexuality, or to change anyone's faith (if any). Perhaps these posts will encourage people to look at the issues more objectively, and not based upon a prejudice against a particular group of people, be they homosexual, straight, Christian or atheist.
Posted by:ToddAugust 29, 2007 2:00:13 PMRespond ^
Randi, congratulations on the ability to copy and paste. It demonstrates great skill as a logician. My intent has been to keep above the sarcasm, but your response is nothing more than a paste job from an online article (complete with footnotes that aren't actually supplied.) I don't expect you would believe even any contemporary accounts if there had been some written in a newspaper at the time of Christ's death. You would assert that they were fabrications. As for the absence of contemporary writings, Christ was not a major political figure, although some of his followers expected him to become one. The Pharisees saw him as a political threat, but he was a teacher, not a politician. Also, it is highly unlikely that the political and religious authorities would have had reason to record His miracles since they considered Him a heretic. They would have considered His miracles to be demonic. I'm not trying to deny anyone the right to love whomever they choose. I challenge you to find anything in my posts where I have said anything along the lines of "gays need to be eternally tortured." What have I written that has "caused harm to gays?" How have I been "demonizing gays?" From the tone of our respective posts, I believe I have a much greater tolerance for homosexuality than you have for Christianity. I gather you consider Christians to be a bunch of brain-washed, mindless sheep.
Posted by:ToddAugust 29, 2007 2:24:34 PMRespond ^
Todd, its not important that the information didn't come from me, what's important is the truth and that's that there are no historical accounts of Jesus independent of the bible. For you to say that Jesus was not supposed to be a major historical figure is laughable, Christians claim he changed the world and caused an incredible stir at the time, not to mention the idea of the dead rising up and walking around - like that wouldn't have gotten press at the time. The fact is of that link I gave you to 38 prominent historians from the time of Jesus lists many who were prolific and recorded endless volumes of mundane facts and obscure figures from the time. The idea that they would have recorded all manner of minor figures but not a supposed major figure from the time is simply not credible. Political and religious authorities might have considered such a person a threat, but the historians I listed were neither and their silence on Jesus is profound. While you did not say that gays need to be eternally tortured you professed to be a believer and presumably one that believes its a sin to be gay. The bible says that sinners will be eternally tortured and if you believe in a just god then you believe this is what should happen to gays. In contrast to most christians I treat gays and Christians as equals. I would never try to prevent Christians from marrying or being protected by anti-discrimination or hate crimes laws but most Christians would do this to gays. Tell me you suppor the right of gays to equal marriage, the right of gays to be protected just as Christians are by hate crimes and anti-discrimination laws and I'll happily apologize for criticizing you. Tell me you won't do that and my criticism is bang on.
Posted by:Randi SchimnoskyAugust 29, 2007 6:27:35 PMRespond ^
Doesnt the bible say to forgive ? They why all this fuss about Gays? Forgive them their sins, and move on. And as to believing that the bible is the word of God, just written through man, then where do you draw the line of what is Gods word and what is Mans word? President Bush says God has told him to spread freedom in the middle east. But yet Bush refused to listen to the Pope when he told Bush not to invade Iraq. Which one is the true vessel of Gods words? Bush, the Pope, or some guys who cant be challenged anymore because they have been dead for over 2000 years? Also, none of the bible is believed to have been written until close to 900 years after the death of Christ. Id also like to know why people cherry pick the bible too? Anyone remember these top hits of the bible : Thou shall not covet thy neighbors wife Thou shalt not murder Thou shalt not commit adultery Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. Yet millions of Christians willingly do these things daily. Dont even get me started on the Money Changers.. How many so called Christians do whatever it takes to be wealthy? So lets move on to the Gay thingy in leviticus 18:22. It reads something like "Man shall not lie down with another man. In the lord's eyes, it is an abomination". But the bible also has other decrees like "thou shalt not eat clams, they are unclean", which totally have not withstood the test of time. There are many such decrees in the bible. If you went to leviticus, i'm sure that you'd find more that make no sense by today's standards. Still , you will pick out the one thing that you personally agree with, and forget the rest. In the real world, its called hypocrisy. But many so called Christian's today isnt that some of the writings in the bible can no longer be applied to modern times??? Wouldnt Gods word be everlasting? If not, why hasnt there been the Bible Version 2.1? Well technically I guess there has been with the King James version, and others, but still so called Christians pick which version they personally like. And if the bible is a "moldable document" like is often said about our constitution, then why cant parts be molded to fit the times that you dont personally agree with? If being Gay is a Chosen life style,then by your same standards, Christianity is a "Chosen Lifestyle" No one is born a Christian, they are influenced by their peers, and they ultimately decide to be Christian. They might feel they are born this way, they might know with all their might that they were born a christian, but the truth of the matter is, they chose it. Same a Muslims, Buddhist and Satan worshipers. Its a Choice.
Posted by:Stanley JacobsonAugust 29, 2007 8:41:37 PMRespond ^
After some of my friends became gay around their 20's I realized that there was a pattern to them, and it is three-fold. There are three types of homosexuals and all choose to be homosexuals: there is the explorer, the type that begins with heterosexual relationships, the bi-sexual relationships, and then "realizes" he is homosexual at the urging of others; there is the repressed, who usually has a distant and/or non-existent father, so he never understands sexuality fully and is usually snatched up by another homosexual: and then finally the pseudo-feminine male that everyone determines is gay before given a chance to see for himself. He almost always fulfills the role that others designate for him. I have had friends in each of these categories, and two of them have "recovered" back into heterosexuality. The final one is from the first group, and has contracted AIDS and is about to die. Although I do see homosexuality as a sin, as well as fornication and adultery, the person who engages in homosexuality is never to be hated. Almost all Christians react this way to homosexuality and do not believe in the Fred Phelps type insanity that the mass media would have us believe permeates the Christian community. Human sexuality is not black or white as liberals and sexual pressure groups would have us believe. It is linked to the human psyche as a whole, which no one believes is a matter of black and white. Sexuality can become a painful experience if not tempered by self-control, and this is the utmost travesty, because our culture is not teaching our citizenry and children to control what they have. We need less STDs, less broken hearts, and less unwanted children.
Posted by:MattAugust 29, 2007 9:46:35 PMRespond ^
Randi,your definition of morality is that a person can do whatever he wants, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. By your definition, if a Christian has chosen to accept Christ as his Savior and then tell others that they can have eternal life through Christ, he is acting morally. By accepting Christ, he is not hurting anyone. By spreading the Gospel, he is not hurting anyone. While another might intentionally or unintentionally misinterpret Scripture, and thereby take action that hurts someone else, that doesn't make the actions of the first person immoral. Your position is that "Gays in a loving relationship are hurting no one and by definition are behaving morally. Those who would interfere in those relationships for their own trivial psychological pleasure are by defintion (sic) behaving immorally." Your comments are a direct attack - and insult - against the faith of Christians. You are basing your attacks upon your definition of morality, and seem to take great "psychological pleasure" in ridiculing those believers. As for your assertion that there are no historical records of Jesus existence outside the Bible, you are mistaken. Tacitus, in Book XV of his annals, records the death of Christ by crucifixion. "Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus . . ." There are also very early references to Christians in the letters exchanged between Pliny the Younger and Trajan. (eg. Letter XCVII et seq). Take a look at the writings of Josephus: Antiquities 18.3.3. "Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct to this day." There are other early references to Jesus, or Christ. Obviously, you are free to choose what to believe, but before adopting a definition of morality or attacking people's fundamental beliefs, I encourage you to think through the logical results of your definition, and engage in some research (with an open mind).
Posted by:ToddAugust 30, 2007 3:19:15 AMRespond ^
My statement was that Christ was not a political figure. I didn't say that he wasn't an historical figure. If, as Randi says, Christ never existed, there are a few questions he should be able to answer because there would be historic documents to provide the answers. Where and when did the Christian faith begin? Who started it? What was the motivation for starting it? Why has it continued for 2000 years? Don't tell me it is because of money or control. Most Christian clergy live modest lives, and certainly aren't in it for the money. As for control, church leaders don't have "control" over their congregation, and certainly don't have control over non-members. As for the "38 prominent historians from the time of Jesus" you mentioned, I assume you are referring to the 39 writers mentioned at the website you copied from. I didn't take the time to research all 30, but of the first 10, one (Columella) would have been writing at the time of Christ. The others lived either centuries before, or at least a century after, Christ. There's uncertainty whether Damis ever lived. Italicus would have been 7 or 8 at the time of Christ's death, so he probably would not have been writing anything of substance at that time. Other historical writers listed are Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, and Josephus, which you believe never mentioned Christ (despite historic evidence to the contrary) so I don't expect you would accept written documentation from the time of Christ. You would believe it was all a fabrication. As for hate crime protection, in my opinion a crime is a crime, regardless of motivation. I don't think someone should be punished any less severely for a battery that wasn't hate-motivated than if it were hate-motivated. I'm unaware of any hate crime legislation that provides for increased punishment based upon the religion of the victim. The Bible says that because of our sin, we are faced with the potential of eternal death. I am a sinner, and could face eternity in hell. It doesn't matter whether the sin is a lie or murder - the penalty is the same. But, through the redeeming grace of Christ, I believe (because of my faith, not because of what someone told me) that I will spend eternity in heaven.
Posted by:ToddAugust 30, 2007 3:51:40 AMRespond ^
Can you imagine a civilization where a scientific/political article isn't just more grist for the spiritual mill? It's eye-opening however, as I always forget just how divisive you've all been trained to be. I like the red ball, I'll vote for it! No, the blue ball is better! (Joking we all know blue balls suck praise Jesus). I could go on and on.
Posted by:JustinAugust 30, 2007 6:58:40 AMRespond ^
My statement was that Christ was not a political figure. I didn't say that he wasn't an historical figure. If, as Randi says, Christ never existed, there are a few questions he should be able to answer because there would be historic documents to provide the answers. Where and when did the Christian faith begin? Who started it? What was the motivation for starting it? Why has it continued for 2000 years? Don't tell me it is because of money or control. Most Christian clergy live modest lives, and certainly aren't in it for the money. As for control, church leaders don't have "control" over their congregation, and certainly don't have control over non-members. As for the "38 prominent historians from the time of Jesus" you mentioned, I assume you are referring to the 39 writers mentioned at the website you copied from. I didn't take the time to research all 30, but of the first 10, one (Columella) would have been writing at the time of Christ. The others lived either centuries before, or at least a century after, Christ. There's uncertainty whether Damis ever lived. Italicus would have been 7 or 8 at the time of Christ's death, so he probably would not have been writing anything of substance at that time. Other historical writers listed are Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, and Josephus, which you believe never mentioned Christ (despite historic evidence to the contrary) so I don't expect you would accept written documentation from the time of Christ. You would believe it was all a fabrication. As for hate crime protection, in my opinion a crime is a crime, regardless of motivation. I don't think someone should be punished any less severely for a battery that wasn't hate-motivated than if it were hate-motivated. I'm unaware of any hate crime legislation that provides for increased punishment based upon the religion of the victim. The Bible says that because of our sin, we are faced with the potential of eternal death. I am a sinner, and could face eternity in hell. It doesn't matter whether the sin is a lie or murder - the penalty is the same. But, through the redeeming grace of Christ, I believe (because of my faith, not because of what someone told me) that I will spend eternity in heaven.
Posted by:ToddAugust 30, 2007 8:13:30 AMRespond ^
It troubles me that so much research and money is spent trying to figure this out. I think the best angle that MoJo (and other left wing) publications can take is to speak directly to the bulk of what currently makes up the Right - ie the christian conservatives - and make it very clear that Jesus wouldn't have cared a lick whether you're gay or straight, and would have loved you al the same (including your kids). That's the languange that I think will make progress happen!
Posted by:Pepsi TokAugust 30, 2007 9:18:10 AMRespond ^
Todd, the existing hate crimes law protects people on the basis of religion race, and ethnic origin, it does not protect gays. You made a general statement about opposing hate crimes laws but you didn't committ to saying that if Christians are protected so should gays, or neither. You didn't say you support gays right to equal marriage, you didn't say you support gays being given the same rights Christians have in being protected by anti-discrimination laws. Obviously you don't support equal rights for gays and my criticism of you is bang on - you are a hater and a bigot. I don't have time to investigate the actual dates the 39 historians I gave lived but a number of web sites all said at the time of the supposed Jesus. Frankly I don't believe you that they lived hundreds of years before or after. Your failure to be straightforward in answering my questions about whether gays deserve the same rights Christians have while insisting you are undeserving of my criticism shows you are a deceiver. You asked "Where and when did the Christian faith begin? Who started it? What was the motivation for starting it? Why has it continued for 2000 years?" Irrelevant - when and where did the hindu faith begin? What was the motivation for starting it? Why has it continued for over 5000 years? If you assume Christianity must be valid because it has existed a long time, why not Hinduism? The fact is that you don't believe in Christianity for any rational reason, you believe solely because of the accident of your geography of birth. If you had been born in Iran you'd be indignantly defending Islam as the one true religion right now.
Posted by:Randi SchimnoskyAugust 30, 2007 10:13:06 AMRespond ^
Matt, no one chooses to be gay. Do you remember choosing to be heterosexual? Do you remember a time when you had no sexual attractions one way or another, you conciously weighed the pros and cons of being attracted to men and women, made a choice to be attracted to one and subsequently experienced that sexual attraction? Don't be absurd Matt, gays don't choose their orientation any more than you did. As to your friends supposedly choosing to be gay, assuming you aren't lying that is an illusion. Many if not most gays grow up internalizing the homophobia people like you preach and attempt to be straight until they realize that they can no longer do it. Some after a time of accepting their sexuality go back in the closet and attempt to pretend to be heterosexual again (so called "exgays"). Even most "exgays" when pressed admit they are still attracted to men and that they have little or no attraction to women. Many more, like myself, are bisexual and have relationships with both men and women. Just because a bisexual goes from a relationship with a woman, to one with a man, back to one with a woman doesn't mean they have chosen their orientation. They haven't, the same sex and opposite sex attractions always exist regardless of who we are with. The vast majority of gays report that their sexual attractions appeared at an early age unbidden prior to any sexual experience - just like happened with you Matt. Gays experience is no different than yours. If you think people choose to be gay, then try an experiment - make a choice to be gay for a week and see if you experience any same sex sexual desires. Its time you stopped being a bigot and recognized what all major physical and mental health organizations say, and even most anti-gay "exgay" organizations, no one chooses to experience same sex attractions. As to the distant father theory, there is absolutely no scientific evidence supporting this myth. If there was any truth to this you might ask yourself why there was no boom of gays after WWII given all the absent/distant fathers there were. You might ask yourself why there are no more gays in the black community than in the white community given the well known problem of absent fathers in black households. Shidlo and Schroeder studied 200 gays attending "exgay" "therapy". Of the 200 they only found 1 they think might have changed orientation - possibly a bisexual to begin with. Many of those in the "therapy" felt harmed by the experience. If being gay was simply a choice the vast majority of them would have been able to make the change - they were not because its not a choice. This and the estimated .02 percent "success" rate ( a 99.98 percent failure rate) shown by the Spitzer study I mentioned earlier is powerful evidence that being gay isn't achoice regardless of the lies right wing bigots like to put forth. And even if it were a choice, so what? Religion is a choice and we don't deny people equal rights for choosing the "wrong" religion nor should we treat the situtuation with gays any differently.
Posted by:Randi SchimnoskyAugust 30, 2007 3:16:01 PMRespond ^
Doesn't this article, and many individuals' new perspectives on sexual orientation, kind of place sexual orientation in the same boat as religion?? I mean, the unicorn can't prove or disprove the existence of the phoenix, right?? Lets talk real here folks.
Posted by:TAugust 30, 2007 4:19:06 PMRespond ^
Randi, one of the many erroneous assumptions you have made is that Christians believe as they do because they happen to be born here in the West. You posit that everyone born in the Middle East must be a Muslim, a Hindu or a Buddhist. What you fail to understand (and sadly Beth as well) is that one does not become a Christian or is a Christian because one is born into it. A true believer becomes a Christian when he or she is truly converted to Christ; when he or she recognizes he or she is a sinner, repents and believes that Christ is the only propitiation for their sin. Sure there are thousands of nominal "Christians" who have no real love or devotion to Christ; who do the church thing and go through the motions but have never truly been converted. As for the those born in the East, there are literally thousands of true Christians born in the Middle East and China who worship in underground churches because they are persecuted for their faith. I know some of them. So you see Randi, you're wrong. Another thing, everyone talks about tolerance but the one thing they won't tolerate is the name of Jesus Christ and those of us who love Him. He came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the greatest. We - you, me, everyone are all sinners who need the Savior. By the way, I have several gay friends who are wonderful, caring people - I love them but I don't condone their lifestyle and they know where I stand. It is possible to love another human being genuinely and yet not agree with certain things they do. You are very very wrong when you think Christians hate gays. I believe it is an act of love to warn people when there's danger ahead. To be more concerned with whether you will be rejected and despised as a result of speaking the truth is what is selfish and unloving. There's no virtue in that; that's easy and everyone does it; so much easier to play nicey nice while souls are perishing. As for this turning into an opportunity to evangelize, I would have been happy to stick with the issue of our First Amendment Rights but the genesis of this entire dialogue was Randi's venomous attack on the Christian faith and God's Word. As an orthodox believer I have no choice but to defend the faith and to present the gospel. I make no apologies for evangelizing because I am not ashamed of the gospel because it is the power of God unto the salvation of those who believe. Randi, you are free to do what you want to do but the problem is that you want everyone else to say your lifestyle it's o.k. Christians are not opposed to your civil liberties, we are just opposed to you marketing your lifestyle as morally acceptable and wanting to silence those of us who disagree with you. The truth is not always easy to bear but surrendering to it will set you free.
Posted by:eleniAugust 30, 2007 6:51:49 PMRespond ^
It is not a fact that there is a god. Man made god in his own image. If god does exist, well that's swell; but I am tired of pea-brained monkeys proclaiming with certainty that this so called god exists. By the way, does your monkey god have a penis?
Posted by:Religion SucksAugust 30, 2007 7:24:45 PMRespond ^
Eleni Rigual wrote: "God Himself, in the person of Christ, laid his life down for all of us willingly because there is no other way for human beings to come into a right relationship with God". What a nonsense.
Posted by:omarAugust 30, 2007 8:28:10 PMRespond ^
omar wrote: "Eleni Rigual wrote: 'God Himself, in the person of Christ, laid his life down for all of us willingly because there is no other way for human beings to come into a right relationship with God'. What a nonsense." The Bible is way ahead of you: "The fool hath said in his heart, 'There is no God.'"
Posted by:EdAugust 30, 2007 10:12:42 PMRespond ^
I think sexuality is far too complex to be assigned to a binary causality: biology vs. environment. And, I really don't care. Searching for the CAUSE of homosexuality implies that it is a problem, an illness, a negative, by definition. When do we see studies about the CAUSE of heterosexuality? Thus, I see the focus on the quest for THE biological causes of homosexuality to be misguided. If a biological cause can be pinpointed, then people will want to "cure" it. My sexuality (which used to be straight, but is now lesbian) never had any effect on how I performed in my profession, how I raised my children, how I paid my taxes, etc. An enlightened society would simply accept people regardless of their sexuality. Some lesbians have been appalled when a well-known lesbian writer fell in love with a man, even calling her a traitor. To me that reaction is as narrow-minded and bigoted as homophobia. Sexuality simply has to do with whom we have sex, with whom we find attractive, about whom we fantasize. It can be surprising; I've heard straight men admit finding Johnny Depp attractive; I've heard many a lesbian say she'd make an exception for Patrick Stewart. A straight married woman with children from a very conservative religious background confided in me that she thinks all women must fantasize about sex with other women sometimes. I've had straight married men tell me about homosexual experiences in their pasts. But while such admissions may make for interesting conversations, a person's sexuality, regardless of the complex tangle of biological and environmental influences, is irrelevant to how we conduct our professional lives, raise our children, and deal with all the myriad chores of daily life like cleaning cat boxes, paying bills, and doing laundry. Whatever the "causes" of the various forms of sexuality and no matter how fluid they may be, the only thing that matters is that they should be accepted as part of our common, yet varied, humanity. Thus, a person's sexuality should not subject that person to discrimination and bigotry and should not prevent that person from having equal rights by law in our society.
Posted by:ataraAugust 31, 2007 6:44:11 AMRespond ^
Biological determinism has never been a basis for liberation , just look at history and its uses to justify the most horrific abuses of people.
Posted by:DarrylAugust 31, 2007 9:09:01 AMRespond ^
"If science proves sexual orientation is more fluid than we've been led to believe, can homosexuality still be a protected right?" Sexual orientation is a protected right. That protects everyone, not just homosexuals.
Posted by:MarkAugust 31, 2007 11:49:54 AMRespond ^
I find it odd such credence is given to the personal choice of one (gay) man. His choice to live an asexual life (which we only have his word as proof of) should not be extrapolated to have greater meaning for all gay individuals. If it true that sexuality is a personal choice, logically we must conclude then that monks can set a standard for heteros? The repressive nature of homophobia, especially in the US, is so palpable that we only need look at the recent scandals du jure. One Senator, apparently forced to live a lie, seeks an outlet in airport men’s room. A congressman, we find out would rather be viewed a bigot then admit his true sexual persuasion. At what point will this end?
Posted by:MichaelAugust 31, 2007 11:55:59 AMRespond ^
What business is it of anyone's, what another person's sexual preference or orientation is? To each his/her own. Opinions based on biblical references are okay as long as others are equally free to voice references from other books. The bible is a compilation by committee. Whether or not it is the "word of God" is debatable, whether the "believers" agree or not. Debate is healthy. Honesty about one's preferences is healthy. Open discussion is healthy. We are all one.
Posted by:caroleAugust 31, 2007 12:16:32 PMRespond ^
Two observations: 1) the author uses the terms sexual identity and sexual orientation interchangeably. They are distinctly different. Orientation refers to attraction-response mechanisms. Identity refers to how the individual perceives their sexuality. The two are often incongruent and it is the identity that has been demonstrated to be fluid - not orientation. Even the NARTH people concede they cannot change sexual attraction and response. They can only change behavior. 2) Male sexuality and female sexuality are very different and any comparison of the two is a ruse. Women are less sexual than men (even in lesbian couples), and they respond more to emotional intimacy. Men are far more visually driven and respond with an attraction and physical manifestation. While a woman can be passive in an erotic situation, the male has to be stimulated (naturally or through the magic of pharmaceuticals) to perform. In other words, he's gotta want it.
Posted by:DougAugust 31, 2007 12:24:24 PMRespond ^
If only the world would open their eyes and see the truth!! God(Nature)does NOT MAKE MISTAKES! If you take "Revealed" religion out of the equation, you wont have the need for "this therapy" or "that therapy." You would have a "civilized world of Males and females who would love those for whom they have a NATURAL attract to. Just because Judeo-Christianity "says" that homosexuality is an abomination doesn't make it so. Up until Judeo-Christianity was born, same sex relationships were the norm. Yet a bunch of religious ZEALOTS decide that they don't like same sex relationships, so they start writing their "Biblical" lies to alter the perception of their followers. "I see, I say, I saw" is a lie that, if told over and over, becomes the truth. As time goes on and people begin to believe what they hear, then naturally, they will hate or despise homosexuality. Homosexuality wasn't even a "label" until the 19th Century people! What's that say about the influence of "Revealed" religion! Women were considered "property" by male nobelmen and used exclusively to bear them a males to carry on the family name. Look at our own Constitution. Women were GIVEN rights. Only the Rich good old White men of Power had Constitutional Rights. So, before scientists and religious factions try to claim their studies as true and accurate, they should ask themselves, "When did I choose to become Homosexual?" Get rid of the religion and science and let people marry for love. And for the more morbidly feable brains, NO, I don't want to marry my animal! But you all must want to, since you bring it up and seem to know the sexual positions with an animal, disgusting all!
Posted by:Billy PAugust 31, 2007 1:16:55 PMRespond ^
Once upon a time, it was easy for the American Right to smear its opponents on the left -- they could simply equate them with the nation's communist enemies. It didn't matter that the American "left" (Democrats) had more in common with the Right than international communism, the smear was useful. Now, however, our international enemy --Islamic Fundamentalism -- is actually the polar opposite of what liberals stand for -- their actions on women rights are deplorable, they insist on theocracy, they love torture and the death penalty, they demand to control the culture (TV, movies, music), they rail against rampant sexuality, they seek to spread their ideology via force, and they have a well-defined black-and-white sense of truth. Sound familar? It should because it's the agenda of people who have posted here like David, Bruce, Matt, and Eleni Rigual. It's also the agenda of the Christian Fundamentalists like George Bush who run the government right now.
Posted by:JamesAugust 31, 2007 1:19:33 PMRespond ^
As a gay Christian and as a long time reader of Mothr Jones, I found all the comments on the article to make fascinating reading. I want to thank everyone for the excellent discussion of scriptural and historical material. I'd like to make a point about the Constitution and "free choice." When the Constitution was written, the issue of "Freedom of Religion" was a major concern. Jefferson and the Founding Fathers knew very well how dangerous a government enforced "State Religion" could be. It had been little more than 200 years since hundreds of English Protestants had died in the flames of Bloody Mary's State Roman Catholocism. Our founding parents knew that they had to make religion into a free choice for all people. If they did not, then some leader would find some way to force all people to worship God... and worship the state... in the way that they wished. Nations across Europe and the world had always imposed a state religion on their people. This State Religion enabled the emporers, kings, Princes and Popes to impose all sorts of political, cultural, religious, and economic controls over all of their people. This type of state religion is not at all what Jesus called for in the New Testemant. In the late 1700's "Freedom of Religion" was a sort of symbolic issue for freedom in general. If the central government of the USA was not going to impose a state religion, then the central government would not impose a variety of other state controls on US Citizens. This fact insured that the USA would give its people far greater freedoms than the other nations of the earth. This position on religion is far closer to the teachings of the New Testament. Today, homosexuality is the symbolic issue that represents freedom in general. Some of this nations's people and institutions, for a variety of religious, personal, fear based and power-seeking reasons, are working hard to impose a state-sanctioned sexual orientation and code of conduct on every person in the country. In so doing, they are seeking to limit everybody's freedom and force everyone into a single political, religious, cultural and economic mind-set. A Perpetual Republican Majority, as it were. This is an Anti-Christian and Anti-American action, but it is certainly a popular action among some people. As Americans, we should not allow this nation to be forced into a single opinion or option about religon. Niether should we allow this nation to be forced into a single opinion or option about sexuality. Freedom of opinion in these areas prepresents and insures freedom in all other areas. No matter where we stand on the issue of religion, let us stand together on the issue of freedom.
Posted by:RodAugust 31, 2007 1:20:36 PMRespond ^
An interesting article if only for it's ostentatious display of legal ignorance. As a legal matter all I can say is "so what" and "who cares." Choice. One would hope that a so-called journalist would have at least a thimble full of legal knowledge before presuming to explore legal issues. Gay activists make a mistake by only hitching their wagon to the star of an 'immutable characteristic' – which is what the choice question is all about. It's certainly a solid argument but begs the question: why should one not have the right to CHOOSE any pursuit of happiness s/he desires? Look folks, this is a no-brainer: Interstate travel is a 'fundamental' right and it's a CHOICE; one has a 'fundamental' right to practice or not practice any religion and that's a CHOICE; one has a 'fundamental' right to procreate or not procreate and that too is a CHOICE, a woman's right to CHOOSE is also a 'fundamental' right. And the examples go on an on. This is a legal question and, if they want any credibility at all, before sophomoric pundits presume to present smart-ass answers (that are always calculated to justify their own prejudices) then they must first, at the very least, demonstrate they comprehend the question. Clearly this writer and most of the commentators do not. People look pretty silly and pretentious when they pontificate on civil rights at the same time they display such encyclopedic ignorance of the law. At least when the Pope pontificates he's at least read this catechism. There is only one question: On what legal basis can one deny others the right to choose whatever pursuit of happiness they wish as long as it harms no one else? That requires legally acceptable answers to the following: What 'legitimate legislative purpose" is there in denying that right? What 'rational basis' is there for the law? What 'compelling state interest' is served? Presuming you can answer these questions the next is: Is there really 'no less restrictive alterative' to achieving those ends. That is, 'equal protection' is a means/ends analysis: if the law does serve a legitimate legislative interest and you can show that it's narrowly tailored to serve that interest, is there really no way other way to achieve that end other than treating this group differently. This legal test is almost always a fatal 'kiss of death' to any law that abrogates a fundamental right. But there is not much point arguing with an ignoramus with a pea-shooter brain. You simply can't have an intelligent discussion about civil rights with those who demonstrate they haven't a clue as to the substantive issues. Arguments as displayed here only reveal the hypocrisy and deceit of bigots. Their essential argument is that while all Americans may choose or not choose to exercise certain 'fundamental' right only GAYS are not allowed to choose. This, of course, is intellectual rubbish. What sophomoric drivel. And gee wiz I had nary a clue so many homophobic bigots with pea-shooter brains read Mother Jones. When will Mother Jones reclaim it's reputation as an alternative to the meretricious journalism of the propagandistic mainstream press? This article belongs buried in the back pages of a high school newspaper for the writer demonstrates he does not even begin to comprehend the question he presumes to explore.
Posted by:JohnAugust 31, 2007 1:28:21 PMRespond ^
The main thesis of this article is the line in paragraph 8, "Even more important, some research shows that sexual orientation is more fluid than we have come to think, that people, especially women, can and do move across customary sexual orientation boundaries, that there are ex-straights as well as ex-gays." Yet nowhere in this article is evidence given. Where are the interviews with the ex-straights and ex-gays saying, "Five years ago I thought Brad Pitt/Angelina Jolie was hot, but now I find Angelina Jolie/Brad Pitt hot."? The only interview is with a sad gay man whose intellect won't let him sleep with what turns him on. OK--he tried women, so what about men? I had a similar viewpoint, intellectually not wanting to do certain things, and not wanting to be with a man (mainly because of the influence of society), but when I was intimate with a man, boy did it clear things up! It's sad that this gay guy still is 51 and hasn't done it.
Posted by:DannyRAugust 31, 2007 1:41:51 PMRespond ^
The writers here present the best evidence against themselves and oh how they do tell on themselves. Another no-brainer folks: those of you who argue religious precepts for denying civil rights write your ignorance bold and you trash the fundamental bedrock of the Constitution you live under. You need not be a lawyer to get this for it's what any immigrant must show they comprehend before becoming an American citizen: if religion is the only reason you can provide for denying another person 'due process' or 'equal protection of the law' then you propose to violate the 1st amendment (separation of church and state (the government "SHALL make NO law RESPECTING....)) for the nefarious purpose of denying civil rights protected under the 14th amendment. It really is that simple. And this is not one but two constitutional violations. Anyone who wants to deny civil secular rights for reasons of religion violates America's bedrock. If that's the way you think people should live then you trash America and our Bill of Rights and our Constitution. You reveal yourselves as American Taliban. There is only one thing more astounding than this abysmal level of Constitutional ignorance and that is people who so self-righteously flaunt it.
Posted by:JohnAugust 31, 2007 1:47:39 PMRespond ^
Thank you for this article. Not being a gay person I only have my opinion and what I have read to guide me, but I fail to see how people can be born gay, when we are ALL born male and female, except genitalia. In other words a gay man has the same body as a straight man and a lesbian the same body as a woman. I have always felt it has to be some outside influence with causes people to feel the need to have sex with a same sex partner. After all ALL sex is a choice. Even though I an attracted to men I CAN and have gone without sex.
Posted by:Irene BoldenAugust 31, 2007 1:53:04 PMRespond ^
The real issue is not the fluidity of homosexuality or homosexual rights. The real issue is SAME RIGHTS FOR PERSONS WHO HAPPEN TO BE HOMOSEXUAL. By the way, for those who may not know: Homosexuality does not mean man to man sexuality. The Latin noun :homo" means man. But the root of the word homosexuality is the Greek word "homeo" meaning the same.
Posted by:Jim GuinnesseyAugust 31, 2007 2:05:05 PMRespond ^
Very interesting. Let's put it on the line: Bruce, Robert, Eleni and Todd and others who think gays are sinners - Do you think that homosexual activity should be unlawful in the United States (as it was in many states prior to 2003's Lawrence v. Texas Supreme Court decision.? Yes or no, please.
Posted by:ByronAugust 31, 2007 2:15:21 PMRespond ^
I just want to say kudos to this author to approach such a controversial topic, and kudos to Mother Jones to publish it! (I would expect nothing less from this caliber magazine.) Personally, I have no idea what 'causes' sexual orientation. I also have no idea how 'fluid' this orientation may be, for men or for women. (For me it's been very stable since early adolescence.) But I do find any research on the topic very interesting, and I found this article quite refreshing and challenging. I'm glad that homosexuality was delisted as a disease in 1973, but I'm sorry that a consequence was to stop certain kinds of research around orientation. Frankly, I'm not afraid of hearing different views, even when they differ from my own. And I'm very interested to hear about results of research that might challenge our current understanding. For some, the Bible may hold the ultimate truths and for those folks, there is probably no reason to look further into anything, for any purpose. For me, I treat the Bible respectfully, as a record of a people's search for the truth and a higher purpose in life. But I also welcome new avenues of continuing inquiry, whether driven by religious or scientific agendas. The day I close up my mind to opinions, research, discussion and debate -- well, I may as well just be dead!
Posted by:Rich TaylorAugust 31, 2007 2:58:53 PMRespond ^
Very interesting article. Opponents of gay marriage would be better off arguing that society benefits from same sex marriage. The problem marriage has become an institution based on the premise of "love partners". This is a relatively recent historical view of marriage. As long as marriage is based on "romantic love" then same sex marriage becomes an issue of equality. Maybe what harms to institution of marriage is broader than same sex marriage but simply the concept that a marriage can and should be based on "romantic love"
Posted by:MarikaAugust 31, 2007 3:01:47 PMRespond ^
Homosexuals and, sodomy and sodimites are two deferent subjects that get blured by our trying to define the words in the bible and apply them inapropriately to today: Sodomy is an act of one man dominating another in an act of rape by treating another as a female as an act of vainity and oppression. These sodomites as they were called were heterosexual and practicing a form of male power. this still exists in mant cultures in the heterosexual community and in prisons today. A love based relationship between two same sex or opposite sex is not what incures the wrath of God. It is violence, oppression, and confusion that leads to self-distruction of God's creation. A creation with a diverse spectrum which includes the range from heterosexuals to homosexuals and the variations between. Reality is the Word of God. Use Reality to rightly devide the Word which was in the beginning spoke into existance. Worshiping God is not a form of mythology, but is the acceptance of our place in time and in creation to the working of a better future having agape love for all as God has shown us through suffering with each of us.
Posted by:A ChristianAugust 31, 2007 3:22:46 PMRespond ^
Irene says: "we are ALL born male and female, except genitalia." True, but it doesn't stop there. Some are born with BOTH which makes them one of several types of true hermaphrodites. So, if a hermaphrodite were to marry a physically correct male or female, is that a Gay Marriage? When we make genital the criteria for deciding if two persons can love one another, what the hell are we allowing to happen? Those who feel compelled to judge others need to hard dose of reality. Get off your pious pulpit and put a stop to what is really immoral, like famine, genocide, immoral and illegal war, avarice and on and on....
Posted by:BobAugust 31, 2007 3:42:52 PMRespond ^
The greates hurdles, or walls to cross, have been constructed mainly by the religionists who claim their "Godly truths" can not or shoud not be challenged. All human beings should be considered equal in every way. Love should not be limited only to opposite genders. Man can love man and woman can love woman. If there is wrong in that, it is in the evil eyes and minds of the "holier than thou" discriminators.
Posted by:George HughesAugust 31, 2007 3:51:42 PMRespond ^
For the life of me I can't understand why it's anyone's business who one loves or copulates with, as long as it is a consenting coupling between adults. PEOPLE have this God-given right. Those who are not called to couple, or partner, are not prosecuted and persecuted; neither are most heterosexual arrangements. Why should those "outside the norm"? No one is trying to force a homosexual arrangement upon heterosexuals; why should the reverse be true? Think of all the destruction to people and families because of this insane obsession of many heterosexuals? Consider the ruined lives that this touches--people who try, very hard, to deny their innate sexuality in order to conform to society and avoid persecution and prosecution, and then find that they are unable to continue with the charade or are shamefully exposed. What a waste!!!!! I suggest that Christians follow more closely the teachings of Jesus to love their neighbors.
Posted by:electriclady281August 31, 2007 3:58:34 PMRespond ^
"If science proves sexual orientation is more fluid than we've been led to believe, can homosexuality still be a protected right?" asks Gary Greenberg. Last time I checked, lesbians and gays were still human; their rights as human beings should not be in any danger. On the other hand, in his book, Christianity and the Rights of Animals, Reverend Andrew Linzey, an Anglican priest, writes: "It does seem somewhat disingenuous for Christians to speak so solidly for human rights and then query the appropriateness of rights language when it comes to animals. The most consistent position is that of Raymond Frey, who opposes all claims for rights from a philosophical perspective, or that of Christians who consistently refrain from all such language." According to Reverend Linzey: "Raymond Frey, that dedicated opponent of rights theory, has sadly to conclude that 'we cannot, without the appeal to benefit, justify (painful) animal experiments without justifying (painful) human experiments.' "Frey accepts this even though he justifies experimentation on animals. Again, 'The case for anti-vivisectionism, I think, is far stronger than most people allow,' he writes. Alas, Frey does not seem to regard it as sufficiently strong to oppose experiments on animals *or* humans." Like Reverend Linzey, I similarly find it odd that pro-lifers (the conservative ones, anyway!) speak so solidly for the human rights of the unborn, and then deny rights to lesbians and gays. Even pro-choice feminists have expressed outrage at sex-selective abortions. When the gene that causes homosexuality is discovered, parents will be aborting children because of their sexual orientation. Gays Against Abortion (now known as PLAGAL, the Pro-Life Alliance of Gays and Lesbians) was formed in 1991. They issued a statement: “We acknowledge that, from conception, the fetus is a human being entitled to basic rights, including the right to life. We hold that abortion denies that right and destroys that human being. We know first hand, from homophobia, what it is to have our rights denied...Like homophobia, abortion tries to get rid of the persons who are considered undesirable...We volunteer time and energy to pro-life pregnancy centers and pro-life agencies...” Similarly, in the May 1992 issue of Harmony: Voices for a Just Future, a "consistent-ethic" publication on the religious Left, Donna Marie Kearney, a lesbian Christian, wrote: “It is difficult to understand why so many gay and lesbian people can support the so-called ‘woman’s right’ to abortion. While living as oppressed people, they are blind to the subversion of the rights of the unborn, the weakest and most powerless among us.” Again, last time I checked, lesbians and gays were still human; their rights as human beings should not be in danger. Peter Singer writes in Animal Liberation: "We have to speak up on behalf of those who cannot speak for themselves. You can appreciate this how serious this handicap is by asking yourself how long blacks would have had to wait for equal rights if they had not been able to stand up for themselves and demand it. The less able a group is to stand up and organize against oppression, the more easily it is oppressed." As a political liberal (a pro-life liberal!), of course I support the rights of lesbians and gays. But lesbians and gays are quite capable of fighting their own battles, and defending themselves against oppression; animals and the unborn are not.
Posted by:Vasu MurtiAugust 31, 2007 4:27:49 PMRespond ^
Sad that such an article needs to be written. Sadder that some gays and some non-gays who want gays to be non-gays hold to the slip-shod Freudian-perverse idea that a cold and distant father prone to bursts of anger make a male child gay for want of male affection. Duh! What an encapsulated view of my father--and none of the four of us are gay or lesbian. In the end, it seems that medical science has become obsessed to psychosis in figuring that if a choice is unacceptable to a whole lotta people, then it's wrong, it's a disease and it needs curing. Hmm...when you cure ham it gets to tasting better.... These psychotically oriented doctors are pandering to the status quo AND are stuck in their castle of disease. To follow along on their logic...all tall people should be put in institutions for being tall and above it all. [deleted]ing insane, sick tall people. Who the hell they think they are? No, no--it doesn't matter than I'm short and like tall women, it's...
Posted by:jimsecorAugust 31, 2007 4:30:17 PMRespond ^
If science proves sexual orientation is more fluid than we've been led to believe, can homosexuality still be a protected right? That is a very odd question. Does it apply equally to other aspects of a person? Certainly, political beliefs are "fluid" and one can be a left radical at one point in their life and a right radical in another. Would that make it okay to discriminate based on political view? Why would fluidity of identity undermine rights? Indeed, if there are "ex-straights as well as ex-gays," that would seem to render the whole question of sexual identity as less important, not more. And just what is the underlying assumption of the question? Because gays can "become straight" that it becomes legitimate to discriminate against those who don't? The whole premise makes no sense except as hinting at an underlying bias.
Posted by:LarryEAugust 31, 2007 5:02:08 PMRespond ^
Irene says: "we are ALL born male and female, except genitalia." True, but it doesn't stop there. Some are born with BOTH which makes them one of several types of true hermaphrodites. So, if a hermaphrodite were to marry a physically correct male or female, is that a Gay Marriage? When we make genital the criteria for deciding if two persons can love one another, what the hell are we allowing to happen? Those who feel compelled to judge others need to hard dose of reality. Get off your pious pulpit and put a stop to what is really immoral, like famine, genocide, immoral and illegal war, avarice and on and on....
Posted by:BobAugust 31, 2007 5:44:52 PMRespond ^
WOW. Get a life folks. Just look at all these self-righteous nobodies, lecturing others on how we should live our lives. GET a life folks. A Life! Do you know what a Life is? Do any of these know-it-all no-nothings have even a clue what the U. S. Constitution, says, or means? Did they ever even hear of the 1st or 14th amendments? Can Americans really be this stupid? Not possible. Please tell me Americans are not this ignorant. Can this many people really have absolutely nothing relevant to say? If [deleted]s could fly this blog would be a friggin' airport. Get a friggen' Life!
Posted by:PaulAugust 31, 2007 8:02:59 PMRespond ^
Hey folks. Don't you know when you are being used. No one with half a brain can take this article seriously. Mother Jones' 'writers' are so desperate for material that they float rubbish like this into the marketplace of no ideas in the hope someone will provide them something meaningful to talk about with some air of credibility. Unfortunately, birds of a feather .... ergo GIGO. But what a colossal return on such a small and petty investment: one ton of garbage in and a hundred tons of garbage out. Ninety-nine percent refuse that does little but pollute the intellectual environment with a hundred and one tons of toxic sludge which demonstrates how tainted and corrupted the Constitution has become. Yes, Christopher Hitchens is correct: "religion poisons everything."
Posted by:ChrisAugust 31, 2007 8:14:40 PMRespond ^
This article must seem really progressive--for 1960. It's ignorant and offensive, filled with heterosexist-homophobic crap more apt for some FoxNews outlet. It's hard to believe Mother Jones is this out-of-touch and reactionary. Shame on you.
Posted by:RichSeptember 1, 2007 12:24:28 AMRespond ^
"All the major psychotherapy guilds have barred their members from researching or practicing reparative therapy" (from above) violates the very definition of science. Are scientist as restricted, today, as they were in the time of Copernicus. The only reason to restrict scientific inquiry is because you are afraid of the truth.
Posted by:Hugh MaddenSeptember 1, 2007 12:44:30 AMRespond ^
I am so sick of the religious argument. Religion has no real facts - that's why they call it faith. Your prophets wrote from the voice of God - today we call hearing voices delusion (among other things) and it's treatable. Believe if you want, but don't force your doctrines on others, even if outlawing a behavior is the only way to get your congregation to behave by them.
Posted by:LisaSeptember 1, 2007 6:52:49 AMRespond ^
What difference does it make really whether you are born gay or develop those feelings later in life. As long as you have relationships with consenting adults that is all that should matter. If you want to make a legal committment such as marriage with anyone that should be your right and it sh