Matthew Israel Interviewed by Jennifer Gonnerman
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JG: So that's the bit you were telling me about with…
MI: The programmed opportunities where we deliberately present a stimulus which might trigger a problem behavior, and you hope that it doesn't and you teach the student, you try to prompt the student so that it doesn't—you reward him if it doesn't.
JG: So it's like a lollipop with the white sugar?
MI: Yeah, it has some similar aspects; you're trying to teach self-management. You're programming stimulus which might trigger a problem behavior, but you want to teach the student the opposite behavior.
JG: Are there other things in Walden Two that…
MI: Other people comment when they visit here that there are, but I'll try to make it a very ideal environment for the students. I think that Walden Two was written at a time when people weren't interested in nutrition, but I think if it existed today…I mean an optimal environment would be one where you're eating in ways that are helpful to your health. I think—it came as a surprise to me the extent to which the corporate influences are involved in setting health policy in this country. I don't know if you read—most of us don't realize that these committees that set the guidelines for what we eat…
JG: I read Fast Food Nation; I know Eric Schlosser. I got a good taste for…
MI: Good, the committee that sets the guidelines, I think in fact [someone] filed a Freedom of Information Access request and found that the majority of the members of the committee had economic ties to the food industries. So people who have economic interests in seeing you eat their foods—the meat industry, the dairy industry, for example—are…and it also came as a surprise to me that you could do anything about the chronic disease of aging.
I thought, "As you get older, you might get heart disease, you might get cancer, but there wasn't anything you could do about it." Most people do think that way: Just these are just the things that happen to you. Most people get their own—and me too—you get your education about medicine and drugs largely from commercials on the evening news, and the fact that through diet you could do something to avoid or delay things like heart disease or cancer, the fact that heart disease begins when you're a child—during the Korean War, when they opened up teenage kids and their arteries already had plaque— so I think that having to—that's a small thing—probably the most the whole notion of Walden Two was that through behavioral procedures you can make people, and by changing behavior using behavior modification, you can really change people's behavior and help them lead a better life.
Walden Two was a comprehensive environment. The notion was that you needed to have the whole environment under control. With a school like this, we have an awful lot. Not the whole environment, but an awful lot. Those are a few things that just occurred.
JG: And you grew up in Brookline [Massachusetts]?
MI: That's right.
JG: And how many kids in the family?
MI: Two. I had an older brother.
JG: And was he interested in the stuff you were interested in?
MI: No, not at all. He was an electrical engineer and he did not like psychologists. He had had bad experiences with psychologists. He was involved in the development of computer-controlled air traffic systems. He eventually worked for Defense Department on strategic air defense systems. I guess in the course of his life he encountered psychologists who were not helpful.
JG: He was an electrical engineer? Did he ever help you with BRI [Behavior research Institute] or JRC's electrical needs?
MI: He was on the board of directors at a certain point in his life. He was living in Washington then. He was on the board for a while.
JG: Did he help with the GED at all?
MI: No, he was…I think he was…no, he didn't happen to, but he was still alive at the time that we first built it.
JG: And were you the older one, or the younger one?
MI: Younger.
JG: And how old are you now?
MI: I'm 73.
JG: And you said your dad was a lawyer?
MI: Yes.
JG: And I think you said on the website that you went to high school with Dukakis?
MI: Yeah, I went to high school—we used to run cross-country and practice together.
JG: Cross-country?
MI: Yeah.
JG: So were you in the same grade, or no?
MI: He was one grade behind me.
JG: Did you have any kind of friendship?
MI: I thought it was a friendship, because I wrote [somewhere] that I was disappointed later.
JG: Did you have any contact after high school?
MI: No, he went into politics. He went to Swarthmore and then into politics. I would just hear about him from mutual friends.
JG: Did he ever talk to you in later years?
MI: Well, my father supported him in his political campaign, and my father's law partner was an advance man for him in his campaign, and I didn't have occasion to speak with him, though I'm sure I went to a fundraiser. The part that I wrote about was when we had our first big controversy over aversives. I think he was just running for president, and I'm sure he didn't want this controversy to have any adverse affect on his run. And from that respect, I can understand, but I was disappointed personally. The way it was explained to me was because there was litigation involved, he couldn't speak to me. If he had even said that, it would have been nice.
Photo: Larry Sultan
