There's Something About Mary: Unmasking a Gun Lobby Mole
Page 2 of 3
|
|
|
|
|
Though McFate's colleagues viewed her as a friend, some found it strange that they knew virtually nothing about her life outside the movement. She never explained the source of her personal wealth. And Toby Hoover, the executive director of the Ohio Coalition Against Gun Violence and an activist who worked with McFate since the mid-1990s, says, "She never talked about what she had done prior to this work. I didn't even know if she had a husband or kids." Ceasefire New Jersey's Bryan Miller adds, "She doesn't talk about her family. I know nothing about her personal life other than that she lives in Sarasota, Florida. For my closest friends in this movement, who also know Mary, it was a matter of low-level discussion that we didn't know anything about her."
There was good reason for that.
Outside the gun control world, Mary Lou Sapone was, as Mother Jones has previously reported, a for-hire operative who spied on citizens' groups for corporate clients. Property and phone records indicate that the two names belong to the same person. Last week, a reporter for Mother Jones called the Sarasota phone number that McFate had given her gun control allies and asked the woman who answered if she was Mary Lou Sapone. "Yes," she responded. But Sapone then refused to answer any questions about Mary McFate or her work for gun control. She quickly hung up—and did not respond to subsequent calls and emails.
During Sapone's ascent through the ranks of the gun control movement, she worked for the NRA, according to a business associate. In a 2003 deposition, Tim Ward, who had been president of the Maryland-based security firm Beckett Brown International, said that the NRA had been "a client" of Sapone's. (As a subcontractor for BBI, Sapone had planted an operative within an environmental group in Lake Charles, Louisiana.) According to Ward, at his request Sapone had introduced BBI to the NRA in early 1999. And that introduction quickly paid off. Billing records obtained by Mother Jones indicate that between May 1999 and April 2000, the NRA paid BBI nearly $80,000 for various services.
In another 2003 deposition, Jay Bly, a former Secret Service officer who worked for BBI, was asked what type of work the security firm had done for the NRA, and he responded, "Those are very sensitive issues, and I'm just not comfortable going into it. I'm really not." Later in the deposition, Bly said, "I did a number of different things for the NRA in the area of investigation, the area of personal protection, in the area of event security, in the area of intelligence gathering, okay?"
Ward, during his own deposition, explained what a typical BBI intelligence-gathering operation would entail: "We used informants that we would send to public rallies that these people were holding, public demonstrations. These informants developed relationships where they could pick up a phone up and call in to find out where the next event was, where it was going to be held…They are usually very eager to have somebody come and tote banners and scream and shout." According to Bly's testimony, he and Ward continued their intelligence-gathering operations for the NRA after BBI acrimoniously disbanded around 2001 and Ward opened his own security firm, Chesapeake Strategies. (These depositions were taken during a lawsuit filed against former BBI officials by John Dodd, the firm's primary investor.)
In his deposition, Ward identified Sapone's contact at the NRA as Patrick O'Malley. From the late 1990s until 2002, O'Malley was the deputy executive director of the Institute for Legislative Action, the NRA's political arm. And according to billing records from BBI (which in 2000 changed its name to S2I Corporation), O'Malley was BBI's liaison at the NRA. Recent emails indicate that in 2007 and 2008 Sapone was working with O'Malley, who lobbied for the NRA after leaving the ILA and went on to work for a government relations firm retained by his former employer. In recent years, O'Malley has served as the executive director of the Ballot Issues Coalition, an organization composed of hunting-rights groups, including the NRA.
O'Malley did not respond to numerous messages left at his office and home. Asked about Sapone, James Jay Baker, who was executive director of the NRA's ILA when O'Malley was its deputy executive director, says, "I don't have anything to say about any vendors at the NRA." Baker notes, "We got information from whatever sources we can," but he maintains that he was not aware of any infiltration of the gun control movement. Baker, now managing director of Ogilvy Government Relations, a high-powered lobbying shop, is currently registered as a lobbyist for the NRA. (After leaving the NRA in 2002, both O'Malley and Baker joined the Federalist Group, a lobbying firm that was acquired by Ogilvy in 2005.) Contacted repeatedly, the NRA declined to comment on its past or present relationship with Sapone, BBI, or Chesapeake Strategies.
Informed of McFate's true identity, her friends and associates in the gun control community expressed shock and anger. "That astounds me," says Barbara Hohlt. Of McFate's ability to maintain her cover, she adds, "She was very, very good. Everybody knew her for years and trusted her." Brian Malte, director of state legislation at the Brady Campaign, says, "Oh my…Of all the people." Kristen Rand, legislative director of the Violence Policy Center, remarks, "This is totally bizarre." And she adds, "I would find it hardest to believe this about her. She comes across as kind of dense—or she's putting on a good act."
McFate's (now former) colleagues note that she was well-positioned for many years to provide the NRA—or any other gun rights groups—the plans, secrets, and inside gossip of practically the entire gun violence prevention movement. "She had access to all the legislative strategy for every major issue for years," says Rand. Another gun control advocate who worked with McFate and asked not to be identified recalls, "She was one of those rare people. As a volunteer, she wanted to know more and more about what people were working on." With intelligence gathered by McFate, Ceasefire New Jersey's Miller says, the gun lobby could "learn a lot: what the grassroots of the gun violence prevention movement intended; where our priorities are shifting; which legislation we would be promoting or fighting against and what sort of effort we would be putting into that; who our targeted legislators would be; what states and districts we deemed important enough to put an effort into; our messaging, what our messaging would be before we put it out there."
Hohlt recalled several recent episodes in which McFate maneuvered to place herself in the middle of issues important to the NRA and others in the gun lobby. One occurred this spring, when the London-based International Action Network on Small Arms was trying to persuade American gun control groups to attend a July meeting at the United Nations on small-arms control. (A 2001 UN conference ended up establishing a program weaker than gun control advocates had desired, thanks to the intervention of the Bush administration, which had been lobbied by the NRA.) States United to Prevent Gun Violence had never before been involved with international gun control issues. And to participate in the UN meeting, it had to apply for credentials. Hohlt says McFate pushed her to file for them. Hohlt did so, and McFate ended up being able to learn what the anti-gun forces were planning for the UN session—including the delegates they intended to lobby, and the arguments they would highlight.
McFate also took a keen interest in a gun matter currently under consideration by the Department of the Interior, Hohlt says. At the urging of the gun lobby, the agency has been mulling whether to change its regulations to allow people to carry loaded and concealed guns into national parks under certain circumstances. (At the moment, a gun carried into a national park must be unloaded and kept apart from ammunition.) The National Parks Conservation Association and current and former National Park Service officials have been fighting the proposed rule change. "When Mary heard about this," Hohlt recalls, "she immediately asked to be on the email list [of the opponents] and she also got on the phone calls. So she now knows the strategy of the people trying to fight this." Similarly, when Mayors Against Illegal Guns, a group organized by New York City mayor Michael Bloomberg, mounted a campaign against the NRA-backed Tiahrt amendment—legislation advanced by Rep. Todd Tiahrt (R-Kan.) and first passed by Congress in 2003 that prevents the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives from sharing gun-tracing data—McFate, according to Hohlt, made certain to participate in conference calls during which strategy for beating back the bill was discussed. "Whenever an issue comes up, she manages to get on the email list," Hohlt says.
The McFate operation, says Miller, "would confirm for me the way that the gun lobby works, which is no rules, no question of fairness or honesty. Anything that they can do they will do to protect the profits of the gun industry." He notes that his organization has experienced low-level attempts at penetration in the past—a pro-gun advocate once posed as a would-be volunteer to get on his group's mailing list—but nothing on this scale.
Photo from Mary McFate's blog.

They already had been, long before Mary came along to rub their easily duped noses in it.
That's why they believe what they believe in the first place, and nothing like Facts will ever make a dent in "The Faith".
Our Constitution is hanging by a thread under the Bush/Cheney regime. This is certainly no time to be blathering about gun control! Wake-up!!!
Just as the Bruce Falconer "Semi-Automatic For the People" aka: "Bush to Cops - Drop Dead" article proves the same about the gun control lobby.
At least Mary wasn't passing off misinformation, hyperbole and downright lies to the public, calling it "Journalism".
Did she do anything (demonstrably) illegal? Can these gun control groups file criminal or civil charges?
When was the last time civilians with guns won their "freedom" from a tyranical government?
Happened in the USA as recently as 1946.
Read and learn:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Athens_(1946)
Why does Mary Lou hate America so much? Snark, snark
I just really fail to understand how business can consider themselves ethical and/or good for this nation and its people if they do thes type of things just to protect their bottom line. It would seem to me that the issue really lies in the power with which groups and business who hire the likes of Mary Lou feel they need to use operatives to gather information which keeps them in business. IF Americans want change and we ask our businesses and communites/governments to change then what does it mean to the public to find out that all of our efforts were for not because some intelligence gathering and back room meetings decided the future that we will have ot live with.
Allow people to buy all the guns they want. Make ammunition illegal.
Sure.
It's bound to work at least as well as making heroin & marijuana illegal.
Work well at making millionaires out of criminals willing to deal in an illegal article, that is.
Prohibition ALWAYS works.
Just not the way the proponents BELIEVE it's going to work.
If you can illustrate that the seven shootings (or even ONE of them) were committed with guns legally bought and held in DC AFTER the S.C. ruling, I'll eat my pistol grips.
What I'm trying to imply is that the Nazi death camps and Pol Pot's reign of terror do NOT happen to generally well armed populations.
I AM impressed!
If you see her, go ahead and try it.
I'm bettin' she's packin'.
And I'm bettin' you're a big-mouthed panzy hiding safely behind his keyboard and monitor.
What gun do you have to stand up to the US military? That is a complete joke.
Only 992 years till Y3K!
"Firearms are a necessary check-and-balance against tyrannical governments.
Our Constitution is hanging by a thread under the Bush/Cheney regime. This is certainly no time to be blathering about gun control! Wake-up!!! "
The people who hire them must be stopped. These are the people who make more money than God, and nothing is beyond their ability to pay for anything they want. Ethics is for suckers.
All the pro gun comments here are idiotic, Its Perfectly Obvious et al are just proto Jim D. Adkissons, looking for some gay unitarians to beat up on.
And the guy threatening violence needs to be banned.
PS they cant confiscate your guns, the supreme court ruled on it, so stf about hitler.
http://www.jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/athens.htm
Short of firearms and ammunition, the GIs scoured the county to find them. By borrowing keys to the National Guard and State Guard armories, they got three M-1 rifles, five .45 semi-automatic pistols and 24 British Enfield rifles. The armories were nearly empty after the war's end. By 8 p.m. a group of GIs and "local boys" headed for the jail but left the back door unguarded to give the jail's defenders an easy way out.
So they used National Guard weapons and ammunition. How does this bolster your argument?
I'd refer you to that cause celebre of the left known as the Spanish Civil War. Sure, Franco won in the end - but it took him a while. It would have been a lot quicker with sticks and stones though.
Me, protecting my family and home is paramount, as I know in civil insurrection (riot), the government will not be there for me. Any one who believes otherwise is a fool, who didn't see what happened in the Watts riots.
And yes a few handguns will do that job nicely.
"Shocked to learn that McFate was a spy, gun control advocates have pondered the obvious questions:...To whom in the gun lobby did she report? The NRA? The firearms manufacturing industry?"
Do you recall what the original question was?
"When was the last time civilians with guns won their "freedom" from a tyranical government?"
It didn't stipulate that all the guns used had to be owned by those who used them against tyrants.
They were "short of" guns, not "without" guns. So they went and got more and did what needed doing.
Our Revolution against England found us short of guns, too. So we took a lot of them from the Brits.
It's still citizens with guns, overthrowing tyrannical government, any way you slice it.
I think this supports the difference between the right and left. The left tends to be honest and work within the system while the right tends to use extremes, deceipt and violence.
Uh yeah, the populace needs guns to keep check on the government. Are you kidding? Do you have any idea what the US military and the US police forces have at their disposal? Have you seen the latest developements in crowd control? We wouldn't stand a chance if the military was used against the populace. The Zulu's had it better against British (or was it the Boers? don't remember). The point is the best weapons we could come up with wouldn't stand a chance against our current armed forces.
I believe in the right to bear arms. But the reason of standing against a corrupt or tyrannical government just doesn't work anymore.
You can't stop people like this. No matter how much violence you promise them!
The people who hire them must be stopped. These are the people who make more money than God, and nothing is beyond their ability to pay for anything they want. Ethics is for suckers.
-Pheed Yirhed,
You would not be talking about the small / marginally profitable businesses that manufacture firearms, Would you?
Our Constitution is hanging by a thread under the Bush/Cheney regime. This is certainly no time to be blathering about gun control! Wake-up!!!
Posted by:Truth"
Yes, because your glock and a few rifles are going to do anything against a FREAKING TANK and BOMBERS. Idiot.
The reason why they can infiltrate OUR ranks is that we need volunteers and have open meetings, and because they have tons of money to throw at these things.
On the other hand, The People do not have extra time and money laying around to throw at covert operations....AND you cannot get into their world. There is no volunteering, no open meetings. There is only Assassin's Pay for the unconnected. For the connected there is the patronage system and nepotism.
Posted by Jason
Right. Like the men and women in the US Airforce are willingly going to bomb Omaha.
As if the US Army's tank divisions are going to flatten their parents homes in Cleveland.
Moron.
Seventh in a Series: The Rise of the Counterinsurgents
http://www.washingtonindependent.com/view/women-prominent-in
Gun control is an idiotic notion. Whatever laws get passed serve only to control and limit those of us who purchase firearms through the proper legal channels. It accomplishes nothing for those who seek to obtain weapons illegally.
It's just more short-sighted political posturing that does nothing but waste time and money.
We have far bigger problems facing our nation than gun control. Please get off this soapbox and focus on something relevant!
According to Bill Clinton's Justice Department, 108,000 times each year, armed citizens protect themselves from crimes. (though they admit that other studies yielded considerably higher estimates)
www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/165476.pdf
Their statistics:
108,000 times per year.
296 times per day.
12 times per hour.
Once every 5 minutes.
But I guess that isn't important.
The conservatives in this thread are defending a criminal. Typical. Easily duped by George Bush all these years and they still refuse to see the light.
Are the Gun Banning groups afraid they might get caught doing something illegal?
A little sunshine is good for them.
This spy, as you call her, has done nothing illegal. She joined some group and reported what she found. There is nothing against the law in that.
How many McCain volunteers are really Obama spies?
Probably lots of them.
This is a non-story, except it is fun to read about these groups trying to get a leg up on the other. I'm sure Sarah Brady reads the NRA's monthly magazine and goes to their website regularly. If she doesn't, she's a fool.
On second thought, maybe she doesn't read their magazine.
Peacebuilding: A Global Imperative
It is essential that the United States, working with the international community, play an active part in preventing, managing, and resolving conflicts. Fragile states, ethnic and religious strife, extremism, competition for scarce resources and the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction all pose significant challenges to peace. The resulting suffering and destabilization of societies make effective forms of managing conflict imperative. The United States Institute of Peace (USIP) is dedicated to meeting this imperative in new and innovative ways.
Montgomery McFate
http://www.usip.org/specialists/bios/archives/mcfate.html
Nationbuilding, the way the US Gov't thinks your nation ought to be.
Bill Clinton ought to love it.
Note that we will find you even if you are wearing your aluminum foil beanies.
That is all.
I love it when whiners show up to pizz & moan about how the 4 million members of the NRA consistently outvote the other 142 Million voters in America.
Or that the 4 million members wield such enormous influence in government that the other 142 Million American voters can't overcome it.
Give that crap a rest. It just exposes you for the fools you are.
If it's worth doing, then it's worth doing right.
["Most most killings are of someone the gun owner knows."]
Gee... Wilbur, I wonder if most people murdered with knives aren't murdered by someone they know???
Or: I wonder if most people who are murdered aren't done in by someone they know???
All of Which proves All of What?
All our tanks, APCs and aircraft do little to defeat a lightly armed enemy in Iraq. Relatively small groups have routinely prevented our armed forces from asserting control over villages and cities, forcing our withdrawl.
In 1994 Rwanda was a "gun free zone". Did that help to protect the Tutsis?
It's 1960 and you're a poor African-American family in the South. Would you trust the local sheriff to protect you?
It's 1935 and you're a Jewish family in Poland... would it be it a good idea to leave your family's defense to the armed forces of your country?
Don't say it can't happen again. It can't happen here. We're safe now. Our freedome is complete and permanent. Liberty requires vigilance, because the forces that would crush it are always hungry.
1. I'm less worried that the NRA worked with this woman and more worried that corporations are hiring spies. Corporations are fast becoming more powerful than the government, something Abraham Lincoln and other national leaders of the past warned us against, and it seems like the right-wingers don't even care. Except they do, if you read their literature, as long as corporate attention is not focused on *them.*
2. Count me as another gun rights supporter and a... liberal? progressive? left-winger? I'm not sure what I am anymore, the libs are embarrassing me more and more. But here's the thing. A little consistency please. You think drug prohibition is a bad idea but you're for gun prohibition. You're for safer sex but you're not for teaching gun safety. I come from a rural family that taught its kids from an early age how to deal safely with guns. Look at the reports of gun violence between kids or just the accidents and you'll find a staggering majority of them happen among suburban and city kids. HM.
3. As for you gun nuts out there from the right wing: Want to know why I don't side with you? Because you use sexist slurs to describe people who want to ban guns. Excuse me, I'm a woman and pro-gun. You just alienated me. Great job there, troglodytes. This is why liberal men get laid and you don't. Try a little respect next time. Respect doesn't kill people. Irate armed feminist women kill people. But not as often as crazy armed men do.
The second amendment says: "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the preservation of the Free State, the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
The states have a responsibility to regulate gun ownership. Everyone in the U.S. should be born with the right to own a gun, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they get to keep that right. Gun ownership is a right AND a privilege. If you demonstrate irresponsibility, you should be stripped of that right.
Ex.: A child accidentally kills someone or themselves with their parents' gun. The parents demonstrated a lack of responsibility, so the state they live in has the right to take away their guns. Fair is fair.
"Corporations are fast becoming more powerful than the government, something Abraham Lincoln and other national leaders of the past warned us against, and it seems like the right-wingers don't even care. Except they do, if you read their literature, as long as corporate attention is not focused on *them.*"
That last sentence should read, "Except they do, if you read their literature, if corporate attention is focused negatively on *them.*"
Because the right-wingers could use a little logical and ethical consistency themselves, y'know? Right or left, we're all Americans here, and none of us benefit when corporations control our lives.
Start with checking some of the top dogs in the Democratic Party in Florida and you will find a Republican posing as a Democrat.
It's all really kind of wierd, because nobody seriously wants to disarm the American people. Their are plenty of Dems, like myself who own guns and support a reasonable interprtation of the 2nd Amendment. But yuou can't talk to any of these one issue folks. The irony is that if any American government tries to take away our liberty all indications point to it being a rightwing administration such as Nixon or Bush.
The problem with the Democratic leadership is they are too fainthearted to stand up to Republican bullies such as Bush and Cheney. Look for another stolen election.
According to the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) in 2005, 477,040 victims of violent crimes stated that they faced an offender with a firearm. (to be clear, the offender was armed)
Incidents involving a firearm represented 9% of the 4.7 million violent crimes of rape and sexual assault, robbery, and aggravated and simple assault in 2005. (that's around 420,000 incidents)
The FBI's Crime in the United States estimated that 66% of the 16,137 murders in 2004 were committed with firearms.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm
According to the CDC:
In 2005, 30,694 persons died from firearm injuries in the United States (Tables 18–20), accounting for 17.7 percent of all injury deaths in 2005.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr56/nvsr56_10.pdf
Also that 108,000 number cited earlier, beside being a decade old, was cherry-picked out of the study. Researchers said the use of guns as protection is generally over-stated in surveys because of false-positives. Please read the study.
"Gun Nuts" know American history, and they know that is exactly how we came to BE America, and not the western edge of the British empire.
By standing up to the most powerful military machine the world had ever seen, with guns, and sending the surviving tyrants back to England.
I've read the study. Maybe you should.
Their comment about the 108,000 number was that DGU's (defensive gun uses) were "rare indeed", at 108,000 per year.
Their claim was that OTHER studies overstated the DGU's. But NOT Theirs!
If you've got more recent figures from the Justice department or FBI on Defensive Gun Uses anually, feel free to present them.
Thanks for playing!
**
Josh Sugarmann, the head of the Violence Policy Center's FFL number:
1-54-000-01-8C-00725
Mother Jones should call ATF and verify if they don't believe it.
His FFL is current, recently renewed- if the VPC/Brady group is so worried about dishonesty, then why do THEY have a federal firearms dealer's license?
Have they disclosed this information to their members? I just got done looking through their website and have found nothing mentioning this at all.
Also, one of the requirements of having an FFL is that you MUST conduct business with it- you can't simply get one then sit on it or use it for personal firearms.
This means that Josh Sugarmann must, by law, be engaged in the business of trafficking firearms. He is the leader of a non-profit, tax exempt organization, yet is legally bound to traffic weapons for a profit.
Mother Jones, how about some REALLY fearless journalism- check into the VPC's dealer license. Why are they, whose leader holds a gun dealer's license and is legally bound to engage in business with such license (call the ATF and ask them if you don't believe it, or check their web page on type 01 FFL's) trying to restrict citizens from owning weapons? Why do they have an FFL, and why do they hide this fact on their website?
Those who support this article and the VPC- how's that for hypocrisy? If he does NOT have the FFL for purposes of business, he is in violation of the laws governing federal firearms licensees, which falls under illegal gun trafficking. If he IS a practicing gun dealer, hiding that fact and leading the VPC/Brady group, then...how is that not deceptive on a very, very high level?
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a79/dritchie/SugarmannFFL.png
Yeah, your hunting rifle or magnum 44 can defeat all that!
Go to a local pawn shop and have them run the FFL number I posted above through the FFL EZ-Check system and see what pops up.
The VPC holding an FFL and hiding that fact while trying to "crack down" on guns sounds like a helluva lot better story than the one we're commenting on. Dunno about y'all.
Thats right, lets bring the conversation down to Hitler because not allowing people to have fully automatic weapons is so fascist. Having a waiting period to buy a handgun is so fascist. Doing background checks on gun buyers to make sure they're not fellons is so fascist.
Blocking such laws though is all about Freedom..... to kill
Plug this FFL number (Sugarmann's, head of the Violence Policy Center, cited in both this and Bruce Falconer's article)
1-54-000-01-8C-00725
Into this:
https://www.atfonline.gov/fflezcheck/
And viola! Hypocrisy (and possibly legal issues, since his holding an FFL for business purposes may put the VPC's tax free status at risk) stares you in the face.
With all that power, you better hope your government is benevolent towards its subjects! The well intentioned Socialist road to hell, we are now traveling, will lead to government that is tyrannical. There is no other outcome. You bet I will try to overthrow a government that pushes away my liberty to this extreme. You are right, I will probably die in such a fight, but I will have nothing but the burden of government to give to my children by then.
However, there must be regulations to keep handguns away from the mentally ill, criminals and excons (and repubs because they are are bat sh_it insane anyway). Get off your self righteous myopic high horses, you just look like complete idiots.
Support your rights and civil liberties, vote OBAMA in November.
How does it get anymore self righteous than the leading anti-gun group, one cited frequently by MoJo in articles, holding a license to deal in firearms as a business while hiding this information from its supporters AND trying to keep other Americans from getting such an FFL?
Check my posts above for proof.
Sorry, if someone tells me that owning a gun or being able to use one in self defense is a bad idea or that no one needs to be a gun dealer, then..well...why the heck would they hold a license to deal guns WHILE operating as a tax free non profit? Keep in mind that having a type 01 FFL (the type their head has) legally binds you to conduct business with that ffl. You must have business hours, must not conduct transactions solely for personal benefit and a slew of other things that make the VPC's "non proft" status questionable at best.
Who is being two faced and self righteous, given that information?
I think modern economics and weaponry have made the basic purpose of the 2nd amendment a bit less feasible, but, heck, you could say the same of the 4th and 5th in the face of modern surveillance equipment, and that doesn't implicitly repeal 'em.
The more relevant question would be "When will be the next time?" How ironic that the nut jobs with the same mind-set as the NRA are the ones who brought to power the dirt bags we now have to worry about defending ourselves against. Oh, BTW, why do these people believe that we Liberals don't own guns and don't know how to shoot?
But the idea that civilians owning weapons is going to stop the government from becoming totalitarian is downright absurd. That's because totalitarian regimes ARE ALWAYS POPULIST! What keeps us from falling into the same nightmares ourselves is our commitment to freedom AND open public discourse. Regimes become evil when they establish themselves based on deceit and fear, rather than open conversation; not when they out-gun the public.
Way to use new material. Double post for the win.
With due respect to The Lord Dark Helmet
This in a place where the lawful possession of operable firearms is limited to the Police.
So tell me how effective disarming law abiding citizens is in preventing these crimes.......
Posted by:Fed Up"]
So you're a participant in criminal violence then?
One more reason for LAW ABIDING citizens to have the means to defend themselves against criminals.
Sen. Diane Feinststein, a very anti-gun person, has or had a CCW and owned guns, plus has armed guards. Ditto for Sen. E. M. Kennedy (and some of his hired guards were busted in NY for illegal possession of fully automatic weapons). I believe Sen. Schumer has a CCW, and armed guards.
If guns are so evil, then why does just about everyone high in the anti-gun (really, anti-civil rights) industry have guns or thugs with guns? Seems like they should be setting an example by publicly renouncing their right and pledging that they will no longer have guns anywhere around them.
As far as the mole, why is it that leftist moles who infiltrate companies or conservative organizations are praised, but those from conservative groups who infiltrate socialist groups are condemned?
"Seven shootings in Washington on Monday night -- three dead. Possible connection with Supreme Court ruling?"
Makes a lot of sense...to an idiot.
Posted by:It's not important"]
I suggest you campaign against paddling pools, swimming pools & buckets, as "accidental" deaths of children involving these items are many times higher & usually from the same cause: plack of parental supervision.
Or how about deaths caused by motor vehicles?
Now THERE'S a preventable cause of many children's deaths that is many times higher than those caused by firearms.
NRA = Not Really America
NRA = Not Really America"]
Ah; a conspiracy theorist!
The reason the NRA is the most powerful non industry, lobbying organisation in the US is because so many citizens SUPPORT its actions.
That's called Democracy, or don't you believe in the principle?
This retired First Sergeant Paratrooper recalls kicking in doors in beautiful sunny Haiti and confiscating arsenals from the thugs living on the hills overlooking the lovely putrid city of Port-au-Prince. Remember this after the most ethical administration decided to enact a totally unconstitutional law banning "military style assault weapons." After the confiscated arsenals were turned over to the MPs, we NCO's and Officers asked, "Is this a dry run for operations against Americans?" We all to a man and woman sworn to up-hold and defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic stated, "That would be an illegal order and we could refuse to carry it out." AIRBORNE!
However, there must be regulations to keep handguns away from the mentally ill, criminals and excons (and repubs because they are are bat sh_it insane anyway). Get off your self righteous myopic high horses, you just look like complete idiots.
Posted by:nra sucks ballz
So you advocate the restrictions of citizens' Rights according to their political allegiance?
How very National Socialist of you....
I suggest you explore some of the 20,000+ laws regulating firearms in the US: There are more than enough aimed at preventing felons & the insane from having firearms.
Support your rights and civil liberties, vote OBAMA in November.
Posted by:nra sucks my ballz"]
I suggest you read some of the hyperbole & overstated rhetoric used by the VPC & other anti 2nd Amendment groups if you believe they don't want to disarm EVERYONE.
How about doyen of the VPC, Carolyn McCarthy's "Mr & Mrs America, turn them all in" statement on firearms.
Dear boy: PLEASE do some research before pontificating upon a subject on which you patently have little, if any knowledge.
Thank you NRA for sticking up for our Civil Rights!
While you're at it, why not read the Bill of Rights. We'd all be up in arms (pun intended) if our posts were covered with "xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
(TEXT CENSORED BY U.S. GOVT.)" yet to deny a fellow citizens natural right to self defense is somehow alright?
Think about it.
Posted by:John"]
I'm well qualified to reply to this, as I'm English & live in the UK.
We have DOUBLE the violent crime rate of the US & FOUR TIMES the number of "hot" home invasions on a pro rata basis.
IF banning the lawful possession of handguns is a such a good idea, then why do we see so many shootings using them in the UK?
I throw down a challenge to all the liberals here:
Show me what YOUR policies have done to reduce violence amongst those who support you - the dispossessed, the indigent, those living in inner city ghettoes, drug addicts, illegal immigrants & all the other proponents of the welfare state.
OK; don't bother, because you've done a big fat zero.
Posted by:Bert"]
I guess you don't know what a NICS check is, or a Form 4473.
One thing firearms owners DON'T want is violent criminals & mentally unstable citizens having access to guns.
In the US, Battle of Athens TN, 1946. Google it.
Local officals took control of the county government. The NYT went nuts back then.
And if you count Cuba and the South American governments, and Darfur, quite recently :)
Emotion in Reading:
The meaning of the Second Amendment becomes quite clear if one removes the emotional "gun" issue. Let's re-state the 2nd in another context:
A well educated electorate, being necessary for the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and read books, shall not be infringed.
If this were the law, would only educated people have the right to keep books? Or, would only the voting electorate be allowed to read? Of course not. All the people would have the right to keep and read books, and the state would benefit by having a more educated electorate.
There is NO requirement to be a member of a Militia to have the RIGHT to keep and bear arms. However, the more people who DO, the better the security of the state.
The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.' The right of the whole people, old and young, men, women and boys, and not militia only, to keep and bear arms of every description, and not such merely as are used by the militia, shall not be infringed, curtailed, or broken in upon, in the smallest degree; and all this for the important end to be attained: the rearing up and qualifying a well-regulated militia, so vitally necessary to the security of a free State. Our opinion is that any law, State or Federal, is repugnant to the Constitution, and void, which contravenes this right. [Nunn vs. State, 1 Ga. (1 Kel.) 243, at 251 (1846)]
Moreover, gun control doesn't work. If it did Washington DC wouldn't be one of the most violent cities in the country.
Why are gun-grabbers so sexist?
From the third episode of the PBS series "The Rise and Fall of Jim Crow", which chronicles the years from 1917 to 1940: "The NAACP played a major role in civil rights during this time. While Du Bois urged Blacks to fight for their rights, NAACP Executive Secretary Walter White posed as a white man to infiltrate the Ku Klux Klan, and Charles Hamilton Houston, the NAACP's first chief counsel, fought battles in the courts to lay the foundation for the historic Brown v. Board of Education case."
I think the analogy of the NRA to the NAACP is clear. Both organizations were fighting extremist groups attempting to suppress the civil rights of their members.
Racists in America no doubt felt that what Walter White did was unfair to the Klan.
And do they think they just sent in ONE?
BWHAHAHAHAHA
That's right! They all took place in "Gun Free Zones." Or more accurately, "Victim disarmament zones",
or "Anti-self defense zones."
So, next time you visit a school, or a mall, leave your concealed handgun at home but be sure to bring your cell phone so you can call 911 if some shooting starts.
then wait...........