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Do Cell Phones Kill 1,000 People a Year?

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In the past, NHTSA has acted on safety issues that result in far fewer fatalities than cell phones; in 2001, for instance, it required automakers to install vehicle trunk latches to prevent people from being trapped inside. But targeting cell phones would have kindled a political firestorm, inviting angry attacks from the wireless industry and its congressional allies. At the time, the industry was hauling in more than $87 billion in wireless service revenues—a figure that soared to $139 billion in 2007—thanks in part to subscribers using about 40 percent of their minutes while driving, according to some estimates. Then, as now, the industry argued that drivers face all manner of distractions, from eating to shushing noisy kids. It would be unfair to single out cell phones.

There is no evidence that wireless companies interfered directly to crush NHTSA's initiative, but the industry has nonetheless ensured itself plenty of clout in the corridors of power. Since 2000, the main trade group, known as CTIA, has spent $35 million lobbying Congress, and $2.4 million more donating to federal candidates and parties, according to data from the Center for Responsive Politics. Individual companies such as AT&T and Verizon have spent many millions more.

John Flaherty, Secretary Mineta's chief of staff at the time, told me he opposed NHTSA's warning to the governors because the agency didn't have enough evidence to fend off attacks from the industry and Congress. "I said the letter shouldn't go out at that point because we need to be more data driven on this," he said. (For his part, Mineta told me he'd never seen the letter.)

During the 1990s, Flaherty briefly lobbied for CTIA on the issue of 911 calls, but he says this connection didn't color his views. "I was aware of what [industry] could do to frustrate safety legislation," he said. His basic argument, he recalled, was that "whatever we're doing, we need to be certain of this. Otherwise, we're going to get our lunch handed to us.'' Both Runge and Flaherty, now a principal with the equity firm the Carlyle Group, said they weren't lobbied by the industry.

Today, NHTSA’s policy regarding mobile phones is tucked into an obscure corner of its website. Using a cell phone, the site notes, "can pose a serious cognitive distraction and degrade driver performance," although "the data are insufficient to quantify crashes caused by cell phone use specifically."

Such language is "crafty" in light of the censored estimate of 955 deaths, remarks William H. Walsh Jr., a former high-level NHTSA official. It was merely an estimate, to be sure. (Because witnesses are rare and police agencies have different reporting standards, reliable data on cell phone wrecks do not exist.) It wasn't even the largest estimate: A study by the Harvard School of Public Health put the annual death toll from cell-related wrecks at 2,600. But coming straight from the government, the 955-death figure "would have gotten a lot of notoriety," Walsh said.

It's one thing to generally advise people not to talk on the phone, and quite another "to attach a number to it—a big number," Walsh added. "They don't put the numbers out there because the numbers make it a lot harder to explain why you haven't been more active."

NHTSA's website also features an eviscerated version of an annotated bibliography prepared by agency researchers. The original included summaries of key findings from more than 150 worldwide studies involving distractions posed by cell phones and other things. The bibliography contained no policy recommendations, and would have been a valuable resource for scientists, the public, and the press. But the summaries were removed from the Web version, reducing it to little more than a list of authors and titles. "How could you be afraid of an annotated bibliography?" asks Michael Goodman, who worked at NHTSA as a research psychologist prior to his retirement in 2005. "It is very clear that for political-economic reasons, this whole thing was put to rest."

Goodman calls the episode "an embarrassment to the agency…To have it tossed out is not only, I think, unethical, but it's also a waste of public funds."


Proceeding without federal guidance, more concerned state officials began enacting hands-free laws as a political path of least resistance. Following New York's lead, California, Connecticut, New Jersey, Washington, and the District of Columbia now require drivers to use a headset or other hands-free devices. (Motorola has promoted its headsets with the slogan "You have the right to keep talking… Know your rights. Talk it up.") According to the National Conference of State Legislatures, 18 states and DC now restrict cell phone use by teens or novice drivers—laws that could save lives if enforced. More than 30 states also bar placement of on-board TV screens where drivers can watch them.

But other electronic distractions are proliferating without independent scrutiny. Portable GPS navigation systems, which are selling by the millions, typically feature spoken directions, an improvement over paper maps. But the devices include other bells and whistles that draw attention away from the road: Drivers can tap in requests for lists of restaurants, movies, and golf courses. Some models even include video games. News organizations and websites typically tout the coolest features in their gadget reviews, ignoring safety entirely. It's up to individual drivers to set boundaries and manage their temptations—a fine arrangement if they weren't sharing the road with everyone else.

Eager to share in the bonanza, automakers are building ever more advanced electronics directly into their offerings. In January 2007, the Center for Auto Safety, a consumer watchdog, petitioned NHTSA to require that interactive devices be made inoperable while the vehicle is moving, but the agency denied the request.

Instead, NHTSA has asked automakers to police themselves. The Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, representing 10 US and foreign automakers, maintains a set of voluntary design standards to limit distractions from in-vehicle devices. Among its key provisions: Electronic tasks must be simple enough to perform with a series of two-second glances away from the road, for a total glance time of no more than 20 seconds. A panel of the Society of Automotive Engineers—which included many of the same industry members—came up with a similar guideline. "The number was, very candidly, a negotiated number,'' admitted James P. Foley, who chaired the SAE panel and now works as a Toyota engineer. "It was the lowest number that the most people could live with."

To comply, some automakers now include a lockout feature to keep drivers from performing complicated tasks—like entering destinations into a car's navigation system—while the vehicle is moving. Even so, authorities such as Transport Canada, Canada's highway safety agency, have complained that the "2/20" rule allows extraordinarily long glance times. "When you're going 60 miles an hour, two seconds is 176 feet," says Clarence Ditlow, who runs the Center for Auto Safety. "If your eyes are off the road for 176 feet, that's not good."

A recent announcement by Chrysler threatens to undermine that rule in any case; the automaker said in June that it will offer a new wireless network, "uconnect web," to transform vehicles into Wi-Fi "hot spots." This will enable the use of portable devices for everything from Web surfing to online games to TV and videos. But it won't violate the industry's voluntary guidelines, Chrysler argues, because those rules apply only to built-in equipment, not portables. "There already exist plenty of opportunities for people to do irresponsible things with personal communication devices in their vehicles," said company spokesman Max Gates. "Of course, we're hoping for responsible use of that Web access by owners of the vehicle."


Holly Smeckert pleaded guilty to negligent homicide in May 2004. Drivers involved in a crash rarely acknowledge that they were on a cell phone—one reason for the lack of good data—but Smeckert admitted she was leaving a message at her church. "On the voicemail," noted a police report, "Holly identified herself and began leaving the message when squealing can be heard and then silence.''

Smeckert might have received up to two years in jail, but the Teaters spoke up on her behalf. "As much as she has hurt us, our family does not support incarceration for Mrs. Smeckert,'' Dave Teater said in a statement at her sentencing. "From what we have heard, she is a good person who made a terrible mistake, and we do not see how jail will benefit anyone….We do not think anything less than a ban on cell phone usage while driving will have an impact.'' Smeckert was ordered to perform community service and lost her driver's license for five years. Soon after, she and her husband moved out of state. She did not respond to interview requests for this story.

Dave and Judy Teater did, however, sue Smeckert's employers, Philip and Roberta DeVries. The young nanny, it turned out, had racked up a string of speeding tickets, but the DeVrieses never checked her driving record before handing over the keys to their Hummer H2.

The case settled for $1.6 million. Dave and Judy used some of the money to establish a foundation, the Joe Teater Imagine Fund, which has underwritten camp scholarships and a water project in Honduras, and given to the National Safety Council. Dave, who had never taken part in social causes, threw himself into a cell phone safety crusade. His rebuttal to an article in USA Today appeared in the letters section. The paper had quoted an industry spokesman as saying that most crashes do not involve cell phones. "That's as ridiculous an argument as saying the majority of accidents don't involve alcohol,'' Teater wrote.

Online, he found more chronicles of heartbreak. In Houston, a driver on a cell phone drifted onto the shoulder, striking and killing a young traffic officer. The driver was on a call to his insurance company, because earlier that day he was rear-ended at a stoplight by someone on a cell phone. In Massachusetts, an 18-year-old high school grad crashed and died during a cell phone chat with his parents. Shortly after the line went dead, police arrived to break the news to the father, who had previously operated a string of cell phone shops.

Teater also contacted David Strayer of the University of Utah, coauthor of the study that compared cell phones to alcohol, to offer his encouragement and thanks. The scientist put Teater in touch with a woman named Mandy Chan. She and her husband, John Geyer, were successful tech entrepreneurs who had sold their DVD publishing service to Amazon in 2005. At a picnic, some friends of theirs had described a news broadcast that showed teen drivers yapping on cell phones. Chan and Geyer were looking for their next venture, and it gave them an idea. If parents could disable their kids' phones when the kids were driving, it could save lives and be a moneymaker, too. The couple ultimately launched a company called Aegis Mobility Inc. to develop and market the technology.

When they finally met the Teaters in late 2006, Chan and Geyer were impressed by Dave's business credentials; they hired him on as an executive the following May. Three years after Joe's death, and still trying to claw his way out of depression, Dave had finally gained a new sense of purpose. He and Judy used some of the settlement money to invest in Aegis, and drummed up other investors. One was Timothy Smith, author of Crashproof Your Kids, a how-to that covers cell phones. The book was inspired by a spate of teen fatalities near Smith's Chicago suburb—and by his own jitters, knowing his own kids would soon be on the road. Smith, in turn, recruited friends to invest.

The Aegis software can detect when a phone is in a "driving state," which lets target customers—mostly parents and company safety directors—monitor on-road calling activity or block calls while the car is in motion. The hard part has been finding partners among the big wireless companies, which would sell the blocking service for an extra monthly fee. In October, Nationwide Mutual Insurance Co. said it would offer discounts to customers using Aegis once wireless providers adopt the technology.

In the meantime, Teater has become a sought-after speaker at safety conferences. John Ulczycki, communications director for the National Safety Council, called the Teaters "fantastic spokespeople," because they "don't come across as people who feel sorry for themselves.''

Instead, Teater engages his audiences with research, statistics, facts. Rather than dwell on Joe's death, he treats it almost as just another fact, which makes the power of his presentation that much greater. He was recently invited to speak at two conferences in Canada, whose organizer had attended another of his talks and thought he'd had a profound effect on the audience. And on the organizer as well: Following Teater's presentation, she'd personally stopped answering her phone while driving.

"I love getting that stuff,'' says Dave. "It kind of tells me I'm on the right track."

Myron Levin, a former Los Angeles Times investigative reporter, is a recipient of the 2008 National Press Club Award for consumer journalism.



 

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Life is dangerous and then you die.

Saw a cartoon the other day, something about voluntary helmet standards for use in the shower where a few hundred fall and die each year. [1800 total deaths from falls, not sure how many are showers, but you get the idea.]

955 POSSIBLE, not a real number but a projection, a "could be" number. no real idea but could just as well be a couple dozen.
Suppose you are a passenger in a bus, in the car, a kidnap victim in the truck of car and then the motion detector doesn't let the phone work.
Posted by:Max ProctorNovember 1, 2008 1:36:21 PMRespond ^
I'm really not convinced cell phones are the problem. The girl in the story had a history of speeding and was obviously not a model driver, with or without the phone. The good drivers I know use their cell phones carefully and drive just fine when they're on them. The lousy drivers I know are just as bad without their phones.

I also don't trust the statistics linking phone use and accidents. Correlation doesn't equal causation ~ so many people are on their phones in their cars that of course some people will get in accidents while talking on them. We don't worry about radios in cars anymore, do we? The real problem lies with aggressive, careless drivers who don't take what they're doing seriously. No amount of legislation can fix that.
Posted by:hmmmNovember 1, 2008 6:33:44 PMRespond ^
I find it ridiculous to pretend like a person's ability to drive safely is not hindered by talking on a cell phone. It may not be the cause of every accident-- or even most--but we all know that using a cell phone while driving is distracting.
Posted by:AnonymousNovember 1, 2008 8:30:04 PMRespond ^
I'm not even sure why there's a debate on the topic of whether or not talking on the cell phone while driving affects your driving. Of course it does. It requires attention to the conversation, which takes attention away from driving.

I think any of us who talk on cell phones while driving, if we were totally honest, would admit that at least once we have made a driving mistake while fiddling with a cell phone and gotten away with it. I'm talking about an unsafe lane deviation, driving onto the shoulder, speeding, running a stop sign, or some other mistake. We've been lucky. Each one of those incidents could have killed or injured someone.

Just find a place to pull over. Does something have to be written into law to be a good idea?

-Wexler
Posted by:William W. WexlerNovember 2, 2008 2:59:31 AMRespond ^
There are a lot of things that can distract you from doing your 'job' when you're behind the wheel, and little stuff that can whittle away at your actual driving ability/reflex time etc.
Some examples: Not getting enough sleep, eating poorly, being angry/ill,
having distractions in the car such as overly loud stereos, DVD players/TV's where the driver can see them, getting too wrapped up in a radio broadcast, trying to work behind the steering wheel(unavoidable for some people, like delivery drivers, but still a distractor), and then there's outside stuff, like changing traffic conditions, road conditions, weather, all these can contribute to the stress level of sitting behind the wheel, trying to navigate from point A to point B, and detract from your ability to do so safely and successfully.
Cellphones enable people to reach you pretty much all the time, day or night.
Let's say you answer that phone. It's your boss. He/She is not happy with something, and has chosen to vent off on you about it. Or, it's a family member/friend who's taken this particular opportunity to cry on your shoulder, or otherwise be wholly dependent on your ostensibly superior reasoning skills and planning abilities. Or it's (god forbid) a TELEMARKETER. Or, even just a wrong number. Let's say that at the time you recieve the call, you're in the ebb and flow of 'rush hour' traffic. Let's say it's An Important Call. You get mentally involved. Your attention is now evenly/unevenly divided between what's going on around you in the physical world and directly in front of your car, and you're devoting more and more of your mental energies to the details coming to you over that phone.
Suddenly, there's an 'accident'(I don't believe in those, hence the funny punctuation marks) in front of you, and you have, oh, 2 seconds to not become involved in it. Or, say you're rolling along in city traffic, and some equally unaware, 3G-enabled pedestrian waltzes right into the path of your car. Common point? Sometimes, the only 'insurance' you have against an accident is the 1.5 seconds or so you really have between the time that something changes unexpectedly in front of your car, and your irrevocable opportunity to respond in time.
Driving is not an inherently 'safe' activity. If you're a 'flatlander', you're accustomed to straight-line roads that don't turn or change for many miles, or if they do change, it's very gradual. Nothing very exciting there. In that kind of driving environment, you can get bored, kind of go to sleep, and highway hypnosis is not a figment of the imagination. It happens especially when people have been driving for a lot of hours in such conditions. Hence the desire to utilize the time for other purposes. But, when you see people that are constantly on the phone behind the wheel, or see people spreading the newspaper out over the steering wheel while they're on cruise control(I've actually seen that one), or watching TV, or visibly weaving because they've just been on the road for too many hours trying to make it to that next business engagement/wherever else they might be going, well, you have to wonder just how much of a reserve safety margin you're talking about there. If you take the case of the sandstorm pileup in CA last year I think it was, where 80 motorists 'chained' into each other, well, not much. My point, without writing a book, here? You gotta be on your toes before you turn that key. If you're mad/tired/busy/whatever, or, for that matter, if your car is a piecahoopty with bald tires and/or other problems, you're a rolling wreck looking for a place to happen. They've done studies, and found that a person who's involved in a cell phone call is JUST as bad as someone who had a couple 'for the road'. Bad juju. The highway is the most dangerous place in the United States, and we've got a national highway system that most people have to make use of pretty much on a daily basis. I'm for throwing the cell phone in the glove box, and for folks that 'accidentally' run people over while talking on cell phones, I'm for throwing em in jail for 6 months and confiscating all means used to commit the manslaughter that they're responsible for. Conversely, for the pedestrian wireless-enabled, I think if you're walking along, jabbering away on your phone, and you step out in front of a moving car, there should equally be no mercy for you, nevermind that someone's probably going to be blotting you off the front of a Buick, but people have to be more attuned to what's going on around them, even if that means having to cut off friends/family/bosses when they're engrossed in such phone calls. The United States made it just fine without cell phones up until the 80's/90's, you don't HAVE to be constantly connected in order to get from Wednesday to Thursday, and besides, it just might do something beneficial for your personal stress level to shut the dang thing off and either put it in your pocket, or in the glove box. If it's really really urgent, they can leave you a voicemail. Or start learning to think independently for themselves, just like in Olden Tymes, there.
Posted by:BertNovember 2, 2008 1:13:31 PMRespond ^
Cell phone use related/distracted driving deaths are still a drop in the bucket when their numbers are compared to the total number of road deaths. There are simply too many bad drivers (emotionally unstable, unskilled, slow, etc) on our roads. It has to be more difficult to obtain a driver license, people must be tested more frequently, there must be more enforcement, if you kill another person with your car you should never drive again, and so on. If you think the cell phone industry is a tough opponent, try implementing the above and see what the automakers and AAA do.

I don't answer my phone when I am driving. When I am talking to another person who is driving, I hang up. I encourage others to do the same.
Posted by:a_cyclistNovember 2, 2008 5:13:11 PMRespond ^
I have noticed the loss of perception as well and was quite shocked to realize it had happened to me as I am one of the best damn drivers around (46 and no accident or moving violations of note).
The worse times seem to be when trying to locate and dial a # as voice recognition doesnt work on my phone.
Also another thing I have noticed personally is when I am using an Automatic Transmission Vehicle I do MUCH better than a Manual Shift.
For the longest time I would pull over to take/make calls and that became an unsafe annoyance real quickly.
So in short I follow these few rules and I seem to be doing OK as no one is honking at me :) LOL

1. The road is the priority, not the phone call.
2. Use an Automatic Transmission if one is available
3. Pull over if its cool.
4. Make it short and never take your eyes of the road....hold the phone at eye level in front of you instead of glancing down.
5. If youre in a spot...just drop the damn thing and take care of it.
6. Or just put it under the front tire of your car/truck and drive slowly and repeatedly back n' forth over the offending ringing bastard LOL

Posted by:RTMANNovember 3, 2008 3:05:46 AMRespond ^
My God given right to kill people with my car shall never be taken away. Vote McCain.
Posted by:DavidNovember 3, 2008 10:28:53 AMRespond ^
In 1995 a woman talking on a cell phone rear ended me when I was stopped at a stop sign. Every single vertabrae in my neck was herniated and I have been in agony ever since, to this day. While I am still alive, she basically took my good life away. I couldn't work, went bankrupt from medical bills, and now live with my mother who supports me.
Posted by:radline9November 3, 2008 2:29:52 PMRespond ^
Just last weekend I was in a Home Depot parking lot and witnessed a woman on her phone, smoking with kids in her car, back her Yukon out of a parking space and drive directly into the car driving down the lane. She never looked back. She got out of the Yukon and didn't even hang up the phone. The man she hit was screaming at her and she finally said "I gotta call you back." and then proceeded to tell him he was at fault. I stuck around and gave the police my business card and the policeman told me "we see it every day" - that's just unnecessary. HANG UP AND DRIVE@!!!!
Posted by:MaryNovember 3, 2008 2:44:46 PMRespond ^
If you doubt the effect of cell phones on driving, just go to the supermarket. The average shopper can't even drive a shopping cart while talking on the phone.
Posted by:Alan HarrisNovember 3, 2008 4:55:01 PMRespond ^
What is so difficult about turning your phone off before you get into the car?
Posted by:Fi MacVaneNovember 3, 2008 5:19:13 PMRespond ^
I'm glad they mentioned all the other "features' of modern cars which compete for a driver's attention.
Just tuning the radio seems to require three fingers and too much searching for the correct buttons. And no two radios operate the same way.
As for cell phones, please remember this is NOT an issue of personal freedom. This is a public safety issue. We are on the road together. To endanger the lives of others for your irresponsible wish to run your mouth is inexcusable. Pull over or ignore the call!
Posted by:David PattersonNovember 3, 2008 5:50:59 PMRespond ^
A driver needs every bit of their attention on the road-period!Even at slow speeds, the unexpected can happen-a child runs in front of your car, an object on the road, a sudden decrease in speed in the car ahead of you...The list is endless. Then there is the human problem-some are distracted more easily than others, some are prone to be nervous or lack confidence in their driving skills and some are just plain nuts -certifiably! You can make all the excuses you want but it only takes one accident to make you want to leave the phone at home or pull over to talk!
Posted by:Mr. IndependentNovember 3, 2008 6:13:53 PMRespond ^
The denser the population in the area you are driving, the more dangerous to be distracted...it's that simple. Here on Long Island I see plenty of preoccupied simpletons yakking on cellphones, with no free hand to signal or to help them stay in their lanes. I've heard it said a cellphone talker behind the wheel is as impaired as a drunk. Based on what I've seen, I believe it.
Posted by:LTNovember 3, 2008 7:12:32 PMRespond ^
A very sad; very unnecessary loss.
Posted by:GNovember 4, 2008 3:10:13 AMRespond ^
How very sad for this young man's family.

Everywhere I go, I experience some half wit mindlessly/carelessly talking on a cell phone. Quite frankly I don't want to hear about your sex life or lack there of or who is sleeping around in your family. Get some class and just turn off the damned cell phone while in the car and out in public. Keep "your business" at home.

I am 44 years old and I really believe that the world was a much better place before all this unnecessary techno gadgets came along to add all kinds of additional harm to our daily lives.
Posted by:BMHNovember 4, 2008 6:51:08 AMRespond ^
This story, and so many like it, makes me sad and angry. But even when things don't end tragically, I think our connections to phones (and disconnection from the world in front of us) is very disheartening. Twas a time when doing things alone (like shopping, walking, driving, etc.) was a time for personal reflection. When I see someone talking on a cell phone in an inappropriate setting, I can't help but think they are shallow, desperate, and insecure. The issue with our connection through technology is that we don't attend to our feelings anymore; we push them away. Individuals (and society) suffer from painful, desperate disconnection from the real stuff of life.

I am very disciplined about my cell phone manners, and I am proud of it.
Posted by:Infrequent Mobile User November 4, 2008 7:33:33 AMRespond ^
I didnt die, but I kissed an airbag and my car was destroyed by a moron talking on his cellphone who sailed through a red light well after it changed. He T-boned me, and came out of his car with the phone still screwed in his ear, before the smoke and debris settled. Never missed a beat.
Posted by:yodaNovember 5, 2008 7:49:51 AMRespond ^
As an attorney I have see the following and more. A young mother left her 5 year old daughter scarred for life when she lost control of her car and was nearly decapitated, bleeding to death as her daughter was pinned beside her. A 16 year old boy who killed himself after causing a tragic accident when he dropped his cell phone and lost control as he tried to retreive it. Three boys left without a mother or functioning father when a truck driver trying to arrange a lunch date failed to see their mother's car and crushed her to death. Her husband heard the crash and ran to the scene, he has not recovered from the terrible sight. Driving while intoxicated is a crime driving while distracted is a license to kill and maim.
Posted by:billybookwormNovember 7, 2008 1:12:48 PMRespond ^
We can easily gather the information to know if a person was on the phone prior or during an accident: subpoena the phone log as a part of the accident investigation. If this is routinely done, we can gather accurate data. The police know the time of an accident, and the phone logs would clearly indicate driver cell phone usage.

As with so many things, this is a matter of political will. Do we WANT to know?
Posted by:Jim in IowaNovember 9, 2008 7:24:19 PMRespond ^
they banned driving with cell phoning here but you still see lots of people driving and talking. I guess they think they know better. it will take time for people to understand what price they are paying. Where are the pro-life voters now??
Posted by:janeNovember 11, 2008 5:17:32 PMRespond ^
I am 38 and must agree with others that the lack of class and public manners is disheartening. There has been a shift from keeping your personal life private, to now putting it all on public display via cell phones in malls, markets, restaurants. all the small talk is now public and unnecessary. as far as in the cars....completely obvious they are a distraction.
Posted by:tjNovember 19, 2008 11:38:32 AMRespond ^
that is sad
Posted by:chrisNovember 21, 2008 10:26:38 AMRespond ^
I've recently come to the same conclusion on my own: it's a stupid risk to take. I no longer make or receive calls while driving, and I give drivers extra time to see my flashers when turning.
Posted by:David ANovember 26, 2008 12:17:36 AMRespond ^
The people "in the know" know that these things are killing people in more ways than one! The fact that this poor boy even had ADHD, makes many of us "in the know" wonder "Why must this insanity continue?"! The next time you think about using your wireless devices while driving, think twice! Better yet, why don't you just do us all a favor and toss your stupid toys out the window -- and make sure they smash hard on the ground when you do!

Posted by:Paul DoyonNovember 29, 2008 2:04:50 AMRespond ^
She "racked up a string of speeding tickets" and was a "good person"? Reminds me of the Sesame Street skit "one of these things is not like the other". Someone with that many tickets is NOT a "good person". That's someone who obviously has no regard for the law and certainly no regard whatsoever for their own welfare and the welfare of others.
Posted by:Guy IncognitoDecember 4, 2008 1:58:09 AMRespond ^

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