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Saving Our Troops

News: Evangelical singer Eric Horner is the darling of the American military, and the bane of non-Christian soldiers everywhere.

November 20, 2007


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Early this month, Eric Horner, a Christian country-western singer, was preparing for a concert in North Carolina's Outer Banks when he received a phone call from the United States military. President George W. Bush had just announced that he would deliver a speech to graduating Army recruits at Fort Jackson, South Carolina, in three days; the military wanted to know if Horner could play the gig.

Though Horner had an obligation to perform elsewhere a few hours later, a member of his church, determined that he meet the president, paid $6,000 to fly him to South Carolina on a charter jet. He sang a 90-minute set of hits from his Motivation CD, which includes songs such as "God Bless My Soldier Too" and "God Bless the USA." Afterward, says Horner, he, his wife, and the couple who chartered the plane were the only non-officers allowed to meet with the president. The singer, whose religion-infused performances have previously been part of boot camps at Fort Jackson, the largest Army basic-training base, thinks the general there most likely "pulled some strings."

The military has expressed rules against religious coercion, rooted in the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. Yet Horner, whose stated goal is to "introduce the lost to Christ ... in every worship service or concert presentation we do," has been lauded by top military commanders such as General David Petraeus and paid to perform at military events attended by thousands of troops. (Some officers dub the shows "combat multipliers" for their ability to boost morale, Horner says.) Horner insists that these shows have been secular in nature, but photographs, Internet message-board postings, and archived pages of the Eric Horner Ministries website indicate otherwise.

Many of his songs, such as, "United We’ll Stand When Together We Kneel," espouse a militant brand of fundamentalist Christianity that has rapidly been adopted by the military since 9/11. "We no longer have a Pentagon; it has become a Pentecostalgon," says Mikey Weinstein, founder of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, which is suing the military over what the organization deems the force-feeding of religion. "Our Department of Defense has become a contagion of unconstitutional, fundamentalist Christian fascism," he says.

Horner generally wears a frizzy mullet, a sculpted red moustache, and a suit jacket over a T-shirt. He started out as a touring musician, and for the better part of a decade played guitar for the country star Lee Greenwood. But, according to his website, "God wouldn't leave him alone." Convinced that the lord wished him to minister with his music, in 2003 he recorded a gospel album called Prayer Warrior, which included a new rendition of his radio hit, "We Will Stand," a defiant, post-9/11 paean.

Later that year, the president of the USO, Edward A. Powell Jr., invited Horner to perform at Walter Reed Hospital in Washington, D.C. As wounded troops were rolled on beds and wheelchairs into an open courtyard, Horner grew nervous about how they would receive some of the Prayer Warrior songs. In one track he sings that "Jesus came into this world to die for me and you" and that "those who will not hear his word" will be left behind while the chosen will ascend to heaven. "In D.C., you have to really be careful or you'll get shown the door if you start preaching," Horner later wrote in a letter published on a fan site. But, he added, "It was totally cool here. The Colonel never flinched when I started talking about the Lord and singing songs from the Prayer Warrior c.d. The troops reacted more to the message music than anything else."

It's no surprise that Horner takes a dim view of the separation of church and state. "It's a shame to me that all these rules are in place, that there are places where you just can't talk very much about God without getting somebody in trouble," he told me. Still, outside of chapel performances, Horner claims to limit the music performed at military shows—such as at Fort Jackson, Fort Benning, and Fort Gordon in Georgia—to more secular fare. "I've done my job well if I never mention God's name in one of those motivation concerts," he says.

But sometimes he can't resist. On September 29, Horner delved into his religious repertoire during a POW/MIA commemoration service attended by 5,000 troops at Fort Benning. The day after the show, a posting by Horner's wife on GoArmyParents.com listed among the songs Horner played the track "Press On," in which Horner exhorts troops to "press on in the name of Jesus." (In response to this story Horner asserted that the version of "Press On" sung to troops does not reference Jesus, and denied singing either version of the song at the show). Though Horner claimed on a listserv that attendance at the event was mandatory, Fort Benning spokesperson Elsie Jackson told me that it was strictly optional. She declined to say whether troops were notified in advance of its Christian content or whether playing "Press On" in the context of a POW/MIA commemoration was appropriate.

"It's not so much that what Horner is doing is wrong," Rutgers military law professor Beth Hillman said when I described his various events, "but if the military leadership is signed up only behind him [and not representatives of other religions], then it certainly creates the impression that they are endorsing a religion, and it's that endorsement that is really the problem." Other legal scholars call Horner's performances straightforward violations of the First Amendment. "You cannot use the military as religious experience and a religious environment," said American University law professor Eugene Fidell, who coauthored a textbook on military law with Hillman. "[Religion] is there to meet people's pastoral needs, period. And not to infuse the entire base and places other than the chapel with a religious aura." He added, "I think somebody should be chewed out for it."

It's hard to tell how many other "secular" Horner concerts have included religious songs, but evidence suggests that he has difficulty drawing a firm line. A promotional video shows him playing before a crowd of troops, flanked by an enlargement of his 2006 For God and Country album cover. Photos show concert booths offering Bibles and "United We'll Stand When Together We Kneel" T-shirts, which feature a cross superimposed over an American flag. "We have the opportunity to encourage and share the Gospel with about 10,000 troops at one time with this one," he told the Paducah Sun last year before a concert in Fort Jackson. In an April 2007 interview with a Christian website, he said, "We go in as a patriotic concert most of the time, but we are allowed by song to share our faith with them."

Horner has found military training bases to be fertile grounds for soul saving. "The enemy is raging on, we're under full attack / But we have the power in Jesus' name to bring our country back," he sings on his For God and Country CD. There's little doubt that the message resonates. "What an emotional morning," Horner's wife wrote on GoArmyParents.com after he held a chapel service at Fort Benning following the POW/MIA show. "We had a lot of tears and I am pleased to tell you that we had 37 salvations this morning!"

Despite Horner's evangelism—or because of it—he has received endorsements from a star-studded cast of military officers. After General Petraeus was appointed commander of U.S. military forces in Iraq, he sent Horner a letter of appreciation; it now appears on Horner’s website next to a photo of the general in uniform. On the same web page Colonel Tomas Hayden writes, "I agree with your assessment on how to impact these soldiers." Colonel Christopher Fulton adds, "The rest of America needs to hear your message—it would do them good!" And Colonel Lori Sussman calls Horner's work an exemplar of "our highest professional and patriotic traditions."

Military law prohibits soldiers (even generals) from endorsing political or religious organizations while in uniform, and Fidell, who sits on the board of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, said Petraeus should "ask that they take the photograph down, because it looks like an endorsement." SPC Charles Espie, spokesman for the Multi-National Force-Iraq, which Petraeus leads, declined to comment on whether the use of the photograph by Horner was appropriate.

A stamp of approval for a militant Christian group by the commander of U.S. forces in Iraq will only fuel the assumptions of many people in the Islamic world that the United States is involved in a crusade, Mikey Weinstein says. Weinstein, who served as White House counsel to President Ronald Reagan in the 1980s, has savaged Bush for describing the war in Iraq just that way and for failing to censure generals such as Jerry Boykin, who in 2002 told a congregation of Baptists in Oklahoma that America's enemies "will only be defeated if we come against them in the name of Jesus."

Weinstein estimates that 30 percent of military personnel now ascribe to fundamentalist, dominionist Christianity, up from almost none in the 1980s. Since he founded the Military Religious Freedom Foundation in 2005, he has received more than 6,000 calls from military personnel whom he describes as "spiritual rape victims" of evangelicals. The military has mostly ignored their complaints of harassment and discrimination, he says, and he doubts it will take significant action to reign in Horner and other evangelicals unless forced to by a lawsuit, such as the one his foundation filed in September against Secretary of Defense Robert Gates. In fact, Espie, the Iraq Coalition spokesman, didn't see any problem with Horner's "United We Stand When Together We Kneel" track. "Is there something extreme or controversial with this guy Horner?" he asked. "I am just seeing an evangelical preacher that is really into 'supporting the troops.'"

Josh Harkinson is a reporter for Mother Jones.



 

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Speaking as a godless heathen nonbeliever AND a former serviceman, I raise my voice in objection to this stuff. The United States of america has freedom OF religion, which should theoretically also translate to freedom FROM it, alas, that's not really quite the case and I think it'd be pretty informative to find out how more of these evangelical outfits spend their money. Oral Roberts and a host of others have come up with dirty hands working in the name of God, you can become an ordained minister online for 30 bucks and start panhandling in the name of the Almighty in about 5 minutes, it's just a little weak. I also disliked getting leaned on by the army chaplain at the time trying to get me to attend worship services. I attended church when I was a kid, haven't missed church in the 30 years since then, and I don't think they really missed me either. I don't think that religious institutions should have license to do some things, and when you start hearing people like Billy Graham talking about crusades, well, you flip open the history book to the REAL Crusades and things like the Inquisition, well it sure sheds a lot of light on today's news, too. Again, I'm a heathen by choice, I don't give money to any religious institutions and that's my choice too. I also don't think they should be given public monies as that amounts to a church tax.
Posted by:BertNovember 20, 2007 11:09:59 AMRespond ^
So exactly when will Mr. Horner along with Jenna & Babara, Chelsea, and all five of Mitt Romneys strapping sons be signing up for military srvice.And I don't wan't to hear any more bulls&%t about serving in other ways.
Posted by:ScottNovember 20, 2007 12:59:36 PMRespond ^
You know, it turns out that our military, praise God, is a volunteer force. And just because you don't serve doesn't mean you can't support the troops. And if you want to deride this artist for playing in support of them, than you should take the same tack with all other performers who support the USO. And those "secular" performers are allowed to espouse their beliefs on love, or happiness, or partying and so should Mr. Horner. Should these events be mandatory? Absolutely not. But it amazes me that when "secular" artists evangelize in the name of "religion of self" the 1st amendment isn't invoked. In fact if they weren't allowed, then the 1st Amendment hypocrites would be circling the wagons.
Posted by:AaronNovember 20, 2007 4:35:59 PMRespond ^
Lurkers such as the previous writer not withstanding, readers of MotherJones should be worried about this issue. Increasing independent press coverage of this disturbing phenomenon over the past few years has shed a great deal of light on it, but has yet to penetrate far into the mainstream. As the fortunes of the far Right (whether dominionist "christian" or neocon) continue to spiral down in the larger public, the armed forces may become their last bastion of large scale influence and support. Without being alarmist, the greater public needs to be informed so dangerous temptations are not left lying around in the uncertain years ahead.
Posted by:Erik BloomNovember 20, 2007 6:28:08 PMRespond ^
I am the wife of the man that Josh Harkinson has chosen to slander and lie about. Josh called and spoke to Eric under false pretenses - lied about his intentions as well as many things in this article. Not ONCE in this entire article did he mention WHY my husband and I support our troops. We have traveled to MANY military bases all over the United States - given concerts for Veteran's functions and memorial services. At NO time in those concerts has Eric crossed the line over the rules of separation of church and state. We believe that you can lead by example and you don't have to hit people over the head with a Bible to show them Jesus. We will always do everything we can to support our military and let them know that we love them. I don't believe there is a law that states that a Christian is not allowed to do a motivational concert and support American troops. I am the widow of a US Marine that died for this country. My former husband was killed in a terrorist bombing in Beirut, Lebanon - the MAIN reason why Eric is so passionate about supporting our military. Josh knew this fact since he spent a great deal of time searching our website as well as the internet and Eric told him as well - funny how that fact slipped his mind. I spent 18 years as the wife of a Marine - I raised my former husband's child without him by my side - and I am PROUD of Eric Horner for all that he does DAILY to show our Troops and Veterans that he supports them 110% - you could take lessons from him Josh. We do concerts in 2 venues on the military bases - one being the Base Chapel and the other through MWR. When we are in the Chapel - we are free to share our faith and music with the soldiers. When we do the concerts for MWR - we use ONLY the Motivational music to encourage and support these soldiers that are going to be defending our freedom and NO WHERE in that music is the word Jesus - NO WHERE. You WERE told this Josh. We know where the line is and we don't cross it - we would be stupid to do that. It would accomplish nothing for us and get the kind people that work with MWR in trouble as well as close the door for us to even be there. We do not nor have we EVER performed the song "United We'll Stand When Together We Kneel" or "Press On" (which is a song for Pastors - not soldiers) in a motivational concert - they are not about the military. We do have a song for the soldiers called "Press On" but it is a song about their military career - and is a rocking song - certainly not a "religious" song and never once mentions the name of our Savior - Jesus Christ. Get your facts straight Josh. If you have a problem with a Christian Artist (not a Christian country-western singer Josh) supporting our Military - then you also need to have a problem with the Country singers, Rock singers, Rap singers, moms, dads, brothers, sisters - all Americans too. We as Christians have as much right to visit our troops and encourage, support and motivate them as any other Recording Artist does. At least they are all allowed to attend our concerts and enjoy pizza & soft drinks totally free of charge instead of paying $35 for a ticket. And we have never sold a Bible to the first soldier. We have free Bibles available if anyone would like to pick one up - not one word is mentioned about it either. Josh you need to get your facts straight and print the truth unless you intend on being a writer for The National Enquirer. We will pray for you. Debby Horner
Posted by:Debby H ornerNovember 20, 2007 6:33:36 PMRespond ^
I was told when I was a young man to never argue with a fool because some people wouldn't be able to tell the difference. With that being said, I won't argue with Mr Harkinson about our work with the military. I will however take issue with the pack of lies he told about me. I honestly had never heard of Mother Jones before now. I received a cal from Mr Harkinson last week telling me that he was a reporter for Mother Jones and that they were doing a story on artists who performed motivational concerts for our troops. That was his first lie. He made it sound like a human interest story and since I had no idea what kind of left wing garbage Mother Jones published, I thought, what's the harm in talking to him. My mistake. He was very warm and friendly on the phone telling me how much he liked my music and then he proceeded to ask exactly which songs I performed for the troops. It was there the warning light went off. I knew he was fishing. Even after I told him HONESTLY which songs I sang for the soldiers, he decided to make up his own song list by going through my web-site and listening to the music. He mentioned that I sang a song called "Press On" at a POW service at FT Benning that includes the line "press on in the name of Jesus". That is a total lie. It never happened. I wrote that song to encourage pastors years ago not for use on military bases. I do however have another motivational song called "Press On" that I sing for the troops but it's a far cry from the other. I wrote them both so I took a writers privilege and used the same title. By the way, I didn't do that one at FT Benning either. Do your homework a little better Mr Harkinson. It looks bad on you to report lies. He seemed particularly interested in a song called "United We'll Stand When Together We Kneel" and asked if I did that song for the soldiers. I responded that we do not. We use that song in churches across America. I suppose that wasn't good enough because he chose to focus on that song as if I were doing it for the troops, even quoting some of the lines from it. He also mentioned the songs "God Bless My Soldier Too" and "God Bless the USA". Both songs are along the same lines. I pity the person who tries to take God Bless the USA away from the US Military. They see it as almost a second national anthem. It's a song of hope and comfort for them whether they are people of faith or not. I don't apologize for either of those songs as neither one consists of preaching or imposing my beliefs on the soldiers. Speaking of my beliefs, let me make sure I'm crystal clear about that. Am I a Christian- you betcha! Am I a musical minister- yes Do I love and support our troops-110 percent. Do I in any way force my views on a command audience of young soldiers- NO WAY! I'm there to motivate and encourage them period. Do I share my faith in any way- Yes but only within the Chapel walls at protestant chapel services. The last time I checked, that was still legal. I told Mr Harkinson that but he must have had his hearing aid turned down during that part of the interview. Mr Harkinson also alluded to the fact that the powers that be were allowing me to "get away with it". Are you kiddin me??? They don't and they wouldn't. They trust me and know that I won't step over the line. Any commander who has worked with me will back me up on that 100 percent. They'd have to be crazy in this left wing day and age to allow me to do that. It would cost them too much. One thing Josh said that really bothers me, is that we had Bibles for sale on our table. That's a huge lie!! I would never`sell a Bible to a soldier. I will give one to them free of charge but only if they want it. I don't mention it from the stage. They can simply pick one up if they so choose to. Any other product on our table is deeply discounted with only enough left over in the purchase price to replace the item in stock. To say I'm disappointed in Mr Harkinson would be an understatement. It must have been a really slow news week to for him to come after a non-celebrity like me. I hardly consider ,myself the "darling of the military". I simply want to give something back to those who give so much for me. Their sacrifice means the world to me and I want then to know it. Try using your writing abilities to report something good Mr Harkinson. You'd be amazed at how good it is for the soul..... that is if you have one.
Posted by:Eric HornerNovember 20, 2007 6:40:34 PMRespond ^
I think Mr. Horner is doing a great thing for our troops. I bought one of his c,d. and sent it over to my best friends grandson when he was station in Iraq. He said it made him feel good when he listen to it. He never mention it having a religious affect, just a calm feeling that someone in the USA cared about the troops.
Posted by:Norma SanterreNovember 20, 2007 8:24:07 PMRespond ^
I can only surmise by your article on Eric Horner, that bashing Christianity is the subtext of your little known publication. I find it somewhat ridiculous that you would attack anyone willing to go encourage and support those that put themselves in harms way for us. I really can not find much in your article that is positive regarding our soldiers at all. I wonder if you would be so adamant if this horrible threat to the first amendment that you have so terribly miss-characterized were coming from another faith. Not likely. I would suggest that your publication has little significants in this society at all accept to serve some radical left wingers. I have seen Mr. Horner's concert for the military and it is not what you have tried to paint. I very much appreciate what he does for our soldiers. He loves them and admires them. With all the negative press, much like yours, it is refreshing to know that someone has a desire to let our military know that there are Americans that appreciate what they are doing. His presentation is patriotic. positive and uplifting, not preachy. Not at all what you have attempted to portray. It is not a crime to be a Christian and the last time I checked, it is not illegal to let it be known on a web site. My opinion of your characterization of this man and what he does should be described as slanted to achieve an agenda that in my mind is both unethical and deceitful. I hope that someday you will aspire to use your ambitions in building people up with the same intensity that you have demonstrated here in trying to tear someone down. I am convinced that the world would be a better place. I do not have hate toward you nor do I wish you misfortune. I do however pity you because it would appear that you have missed some of the best blessings life can offer.
Posted by:eurono v. eritasNovember 20, 2007 10:53:58 PMRespond ^
Bush and the neocons are concerned to save the souls of the troops since they're responsible for sending so many of them--4000 to date--to the hereafter prematurely. If Jesus knew what he was talking about, it's hard to reconcile their mission with Christianity.
Posted by:AlexLawyerNovember 20, 2007 11:39:38 PMRespond ^
On being charming to disarm an interview subject and minor duplicity to obtain personal details ... where have y'all been, Debbie & Eric that's standard operating procedure. On MOTHER JONES being a minor publication, for 30 years this award winning magazine has brought the story from another point of view to hundreds of thousands of readers From exploding Pintos to exposing y'all Mother Jones is certainly not an obscure minor publication
Posted by:Max ProctorNovember 21, 2007 2:53:07 AMRespond ^
This is probably the first and last time I will be viewing this website. I was prompted here by one of my customers, Eric Horner. I have known Eric for several years and have sold him motorhomes to travel around the country. I know that he is a Christian, he makes no apology for that and after many business transactions, I would rate him as one of the finest people I know. The best word I could use to describe him is INTEGRITY. He has told me of his military concerts and the passion he has for our troops. I do believe it started with his love for his wife Debbie and the struggle she has been through for many years because of the loss of her first husband in active military duty. It is because of that passion Eric operates on a break even pace with the military. He even spends his own money to supplement his expenses and be able to encourage our troops. I have often wondered, how does he afford it, but it is obvious that GOD makes the way for him. It is sad when reporters in the name of "freedom of speech" crucify in print such a patriotic American. It is even worse that he not allow Eric that same "freedom of speech". This is still America, and we have rights. If anyone has a problem with GOD, then they need to turn in all their money because last time I checked, it still says "In GOD we trust"!
Posted by:Mike RileyNovember 21, 2007 7:09:58 AMRespond ^
Max, so "minor" duplicity is acceptable in reporting? And is also getting the facts and then throwing them out with the bath water, and writing whatever you feel like writing? Is that SOP for Mother Jones? I feel that if it is, certainly Mother Jones should enlighten us, so we know that we are reading a shopping aisle rag, and not a high-standard reporting journal.
Posted by:AaronNovember 21, 2007 7:16:25 AMRespond ^
The point of the article is not to say that Horner should not be able to speak freely, it is to say he should not do it with the support and coercive power of the military hierarchy. He can do all he wants to support the troops, but not on my dime. Why do all the rightists cry about lack of free speech whenever anyone disagrees with them? They are the ones (usually) who try to suppress dissenting voices and force their views on those who would rather think for themselves.
Posted by:Bill GNovember 21, 2007 7:23:44 AMRespond ^
God is what our country in founded on and we do still have free speach in this country... The concerts that Eric performs for the military, are not manditory. If any of those men and women want to leave, THEY CAN LEAVE! But I have met Eric and Debbie and they are one of the most wonderful couple I have ever met. They lead by example, they do not need to "push" religion or God on anyone. It is almost sad what things are coming to. We can have gay parades and no one bothers them so what is the problem with Eric and Debbie doing motivational concerts for the military. Many of those men and women really enjoy hearing Erics song. I am going to pray for you all because when anyone messes with God's children, your are poking the apple of HIS eye! I love you Eric and Debbie!!! Keep doing what your doing! God will bless you, just like He already has.
Posted by:Jena MartinNovember 21, 2007 8:07:18 AMRespond ^
As Senior Research Director for the Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF), I feel that I must respond to the accusations leveled against Mr. Harkinson by Mr. and Mrs. Horner. While the Horners' assertions may sound pretty convincing at first glance, and without the rigor of applied scrutiny, the MRFF research team has easily been able to poke so many holes in their statements that no reasonable person could possibly believe them. According to Mr. Horner: "Even after I told him HONESTLY which songs I sang for the soldiers, he decided to make up his own song list by going through my web-site and listening to the music. He mentioned that I sang a song called "Press On" at a POW service at FT Benning that includes the line "press on in the name of Jesus". That is a total lie. It never happened. I wrote that song to encourage pastors years ago not for use on military bases. I do however have another motivational song called "Press On" that I sing for the troops but it's a far cry from the other. I wrote them both so I took a writers privilege and used the same title. By the way, I didn't do that one at FT Benning either." Maybe Mr. and Mrs. Horner should have compared notes before posting their accusations. It was actually Mrs. Horner, in a post on the GoArmyParents.com message board, who said that a song called "Press On" was among the songs performed at Fort Benning. So, even if Mr. Horner really does have a second song with this same title, his statement above that "I didn't do that one at FT Benning either" is not true. Mrs. Horner, writing on Sun Sep 30, 2007, the day after the Fort Benning concert, described the event in detail, listing eleven songs that her husband played. According to Mrs. Horner's post: "The [sic] another Sgt Major came up and spoke about his tour - both of these soldiers had been wounded - and shared their experiences with the new soldiers. Eric came back after this speaker and sang: 1. PRESS ON 2. SOLDIER 3. WATCH OVER THOSE WHO ARE WATCHING OVER ME" That last song listed by Mrs. Horner, "Watch Over Those Who Are Watching Over Me," isn't exactly the secular, motivational type song that Mr. Horner claims to restrict his military performances to either. In fact, on the Eric Horner Ministries website, it is subtitled "A prayer for our military." The song begins: "Lord, you know the names Each and every face The ones who for my freedom Are standing in harm's way I lift them now to you Hold them in your loving hands Send angels to protect them Until you bring them home again..." Both Mr. and Mrs. Horner seem pretty insistent that it is only at their chapel performances that they dare to get religious. Mr. Horner: "Do I in any way force my views on a command audience of young soldiers- NO WAY! I'm there to motivate and encourage them period. Do I share my faith in any way- Yes but only within the Chapel walls at protestant chapel services." Mrs. Horner: "We do concerts in 2 venues on the military bases - one being the Base Chapel and the other through MWR. When we are in the Chapel - we are free to share our faith and music with the soldiers. When we do the concerts for MWR - we use ONLY the Motivational music to encourage and support these soldiers.... So, how does Mr. Horner explain his statement in that Paducah Sun article about the concert at Fort Jackson? Are we to take it that what he meant by "We have the opportunity to encourage and share the gospel with about 10,000 troops at one time with this one" was that he expected 10,000 troops at the Protestant chapel service at Fort Jackson? After all, this is the only place where he claims to share his faith in any way with the troops. So, he couldn't possibly have meant he was going to "share the gospel" at the concert, right? Does he really expect anyone to buy this? And what, exactly, did Mr. Horner mean when he said this in an April 2007 interview with OneNewsNow.com reporter: "They're hungry. They really are. They're hungry for the gospel. They're looking for answers. So many of the kids in the service -- some of them have come from very tough backgrounds, and some of them have never set foot inside a church before. And we get the opportunity to do -- we go in as a patriotic concert most of the time, but we are allowed by song to share our faith with them." Again, Mr. Horner is clearly talking about the concerts, and not the chapel services. Most amazing of all, however, are the reports of soldiers suddenly deciding to give church another try after attending nothing but one of Mr. Horner's "motivational" concerts. As Mrs. Horner explains it, "We believe that you can lead by example and you don't have to hit people over the head with a Bible to show them Jesus." Well, apparently, Mr. Horner not only doesn't have to hit them over the head with a Bible to show them Jesus, he doesn't even have to sing a single religious song or share his faith "in any way." All he has to do is sing a few songs about drill sergeants and basic training and suddenly, for some completely unrelated reason, people in the audience decide they want to go to church! The Horner's include an example of this truly remarkable reaction in their "Ministry to the Military" promotional video. In that video, among the many concert photographs and endorsements from commanders, enlisted soldiers, and family members, is the following, from the wife of a soldier at Fort Sill. "I wanted to thank you for your wonderful ministries and tell you that you have touched a life that I have been praying for. My husband, age 35, Pvt. Rooney, is a new member of the military, Army National Guard, and is at Basic Training at Fort Sill. He sent me a letter the night of your concert just overwhelmed with your music and how good it made him feel. In his letter he stated that I had to go to your website and buy some of you CD's for him when he gets home. We have been married for 12 1/2 years and I have been praying for a long time that he would start going to church with me and become active in the church I attend in Charlotte, North Carolina. He's told me that now he wants to give church another try. God Bless you and thank you. May your ministries touch many many more lives." Wow! This soldier's wife, in 12 1/2 years of marriage, couldn't get her husband to go to church, but Mr. Horner's concert, without a bit of religious music or evangelizing, did the trick! Pretty hard to believe, isn't it? In the case of this concert at Fort Sill, there is no question that the installation's Moral, Welfare, and Recreation (MWR) department was aware that this was going to be a religious event. The following is from Fort Sill's "Townhall Meeting" website. This is a site where various departments at Fort Sill answer questions submitted by people on the base. In this Q & A forum, someone from the MWR department, addressing a complaint about too many country concerts, called the upcoming Horner concert a "Christian concert." "Fort Sill began hosting the Army concert series in 1994. Market research has shown that country music fares extremely well in southwest Oklahoma. Although our Army Concert Tour features country artists, it is our largest fundraiser in support of MWR programs. However, we are looking at hosting a concert in the early fall that will feature other performers, in fact, we are hosting a Christian concert on 22 April with Eric Horner. ..." Yet, when this concert was announced by the MWR department, and not in answer to a complaint about too many country concerts, Mr. Horner was not billed as a Christian performer, but a "Country Recording Artist," and the concert was described as "patriotic." Mr. Horner, addressing the issue of concern to MRFF -- that military commanders are allowing the evangelizing of our troops at mandatory events -- denies that this is happening. "I told Mr Harkinson that but he must have had his hearing aid turned down during that part of the interview. Mr Harkinson also alluded to the fact that the powers that be were allowing me to "get away with it". Are you kiddin me??? They don't and they wouldn't. They trust me and know that I won't step over the line. Any commander who has worked with me will back me up on that 100 percent. They'd have to be crazy in this left wing day and age to allow me to do that." Well, based on that assessment, officers like the colonel described by Mr. Horner in his own description of his June 2003 performance at Walter Reed Army Medical Center are apparently "crazy." "I sang for about 45 minutes performing some of the Patriotic Music from my album and telling them the stories behind the songs. I also did a few funny things and got a few grins and chuckles. The thing they loved most was the Gospel music. I was a little worried about what kind of reaction I would get to that music. In D.C., you have to really be careful or you'll get shown the door if you start preaching. It was totally cool here. The Colonel never flinched when I started talking about the Lord and singing songs from the Prayer Warrior c.d." Certainly sounds like that colonel did, in fact, let Mr. Horner "get away with it," doesn't it? The problem with Mr. Horner's concerts, as far as MRFF is concerned, isn't one of Christian artists performing for our military. There is nothing wrong with this -- as long as these events are sponsored by the Chaplain's office, clearly promoted as religious events, and attendance is not mandatory or in any way coerced. This, however, is not the case with Mr. Horner's concerts, which are typically sponsored by the installation's MWR department; are promoted as "patriotic" concerts; and are, in some cases, mandatory.
Posted by:Chris RoddaNovember 21, 2007 10:02:43 AMRespond ^
(this is continued from my last post, as my comments exceeded the character limit.) The Horner's themselves have stated on the GoArmyParents.com message board that the Ft. Benning concert was mandatory, posting the following on the day of the concert: "We are getting ready to pull into Ft. Benning in a few minutes. We have a couple of hours to get everything set up before the POW/MIA concert service this evening. If your soldier is at Ft. Benning - he WILL be at this event. It is mandatory [sic] for them to attend. ..." Other sources back this up, such as the following, from a message posted by a mother who got it from a letter written by a basic trainee who was there: "This past sat. night was the POW Concert at Benning with Eric Horner! Then the 2 services Sunday morning at Soldier's Chapel. I have no idea if Zach went to Chapel or not, but the Concert was mandatory and he did say he was going to both anyways." Regarding Mrs. Horner's comments about the song "United We'll Stand When Together We Kneel," there is no evidence that Mr. Horner has performed this particular song at his military concerts. The problem here is the T-shirts based on this song, which are displayed and sold at military concerts. On the front of the shirt is a large cross with an American flag in it, and the words "United We'll Stand When Together We Kneel." On the back is a passage from 2 Chronicles 7:14, "If my people who are called by my name, will humble themselves, and pray and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and forgive their sin and heal their land." These T-shirts are not only displayed at the concerts, at "Bible Ministry to the Troops" booths which, judging by the photos, would be hard for the soldiers to avoid, but are worn by Eric Horner Ministries members at the concerts. Regarding the distribution of Bibles -- the Horner's are correct there. The Bibles, (NIV Military Softcover New Testaments with Psalms & Proverbs in a desert camouflage cover), are, in fact, given away for free. The Bible Ministry booth appears from photos to be set up at all concerts with the free New Testaments to the left, CDs and books for sale in the middle, and the "United We'll Stand When Together We Kneel" T-shirts to the right. Nobody at MRFF questions the patriotism of Christian artists like Mr. Horner, or the sincerity of the Mr. and Mrs. Horner's desire to support our troops, particularly given the ultimate sacrifice made by Mrs. Horner's first husband while serving our country. As already mentioned, MRFF's primary concerns with Mr. Horner's performances have to do with the military commanders who are allowing the deceptive promotion of, and mandatory attendance at, these events. These concerts are but one example of the much larger, military-wide problem that MRFF Founder and President Mikey Weinstein describes as "a pernicious and pervasive pattern and practice" of constitutional violations. There is also, of course, the endorsements by active duty military officers, including General Petraeus, in the Eric Horner Ministries promotional video and on the ministry's website. As is clear from long-standing military regulations, and confirmed by the Pentagon Inspector General's report on the Christian Embassy video this summer, it is illegal for active duty military personnel to endorse any "non-federal entity," religious or not, while in uniform. This regulation is clearly being violated here. According to Mikey Weinstein, "This is not a political spectrum left or right issue. It is a constitutional right and wrong issue." Weinstein, an Air Force Academy honor graduate and former JAG, is a registered Republican who served as counsel in the Reagan White House, and is former general counsel to Texas billionaire and two-time presidential candidate Ross Perot. Clearly Mr. Weinstein is no "leftist." This is also not a Christian vs. non-Christian issue. Of the over 6,000 complaints received by MRFF since its founding, 96% have been from active and retired military personnel who are Christians. Chris Rodda Senior Research Director, Military Religious Freedom Foundation
Posted by:Chris RoddaNovember 21, 2007 10:04:41 AMRespond ^
The explicit union of state power and religious experience is almost irresistably seductive, but those who do so risk a terrible danger. Once the state fails (and it *will* fail, have no doubt of that), it will be widely seen as an agent of evil. Its creature -- established religion -- will perish with it.
Posted by:Serafim TkachukNovember 21, 2007 10:37:32 AMRespond ^
Thanks for the comments on both sides. I have added to the story to note Horner's assertion that the lyrics of "Press On" were different from the lyrics published on his website and have noted that the Bibles were being offered instead of sold.
Posted by:Josh HarkinsonNovember 21, 2007 10:42:43 AMRespond ^
Isn't this non-corporate media a great thing? Here, many "sides" get to represent themselves in their own words and respond to one another. You'd never see anything like this on Fox News. This is why non-corporate media such as Mother Jones deserve our support - because they allow facts to come out that are otherwise covered up, and true democracy to be supported.
Posted by:Lynn DavisNovember 21, 2007 12:06:43 PMRespond ^
Another Constitution shredder hard at work on the troops now.
Posted by:jdickbNovember 21, 2007 12:20:54 PMRespond ^
Debby Horner slams Josh for a long, long time and then ends by saying she will pray for him. I do not believe her. I despise people who use God to club other people and then claim to be praying for them. What a bunch of BS!
Posted by:Dave RichardNovember 21, 2007 12:37:01 PMRespond ^
35 years US Army Retired. Woe be us who let your type determine our tactics but more importantly determine our religious affiliations. We always had the choice to not attend religious services/entertainment and still do.. Your lack of situational awareness in describing the real conduct of these events is atrocious and your real intent is questionable.
Posted by:ClintonNovember 21, 2007 12:55:25 PMRespond ^
I am a spiritual person but I try not to push my belief on others. I try no to be fanatic or dogmatic. I think in order for someone to "believe" the crap being espoused in the name of evangelical religion these days proponents have to brainwash themselves and others with dogmatic repetition. fanaticism grows from ignorance and fear. Lets get back to peace, hope and love.
Posted by:JimNovember 21, 2007 12:59:00 PMRespond ^
God is NOT what our country was founded on! I get SO tired of hearing that. Read a history book beyond the fifth grade, people! Our founders were DEISTS! That means that they believed that god (if he did exist) minded his own business and it was up to us to establish right living without his influence and interference. Thomas Jefferson re-wrote the Bible. His version was SIXTEEN pages long and included only ethical guidelines. Nothing about Jesus. Benjamin Franklin was a confirmed athiest who believed that God weakened the minds and moral fiber of individuals. As a lover of history, this country, and its founders, I am PROUD to say that our country was THE FIRST GODLESS country in the world. And I pray to the Spaghetti Monster that we have the wisdom to keep it that way!
Posted by:BilleenNovember 21, 2007 12:59:07 PMRespond ^
It's a sorry day in the world when anybody believes the crap that Horner sings about...Jesus must be puking in his grave...
Posted by:Christopher FlynnNovember 21, 2007 1:02:50 PMRespond ^
chaplains have been a fundamental icon in the military. It seems that the president has realised the need of God in the life of the soldiers.
Posted by:Dr.QNovember 21, 2007 1:06:03 PMRespond ^
Mr. Horner is an "evangelist". An evangelist is supposed to bring souls to christ or sinners to jesus or the afflicted to god. His lengthy justification for doing his job is disingenuous and an insult to the troops intelligence. He should not be doing his work on the government dime and he should not be ashamed to say what he is really doing.
Posted by:pete sausyNovember 21, 2007 1:19:43 PMRespond ^
I am not insulted that they sent a Christian singing preacher with a mullet and then forced our troops to listen to him. I'm insulted that they let someone with the musical talent of a six year old pagent princess sing to our troops. Aren't there any good bands left? Lastly I think we should go back to the good old days when soldiers had to pray to Sol Invictus and the Imperator for victory.
Posted by:daymanNovember 21, 2007 1:36:32 PMRespond ^
Religious claims are not knowledge claims. A religious claim can assert anything at all, e.g. "God is talking to me right now". A claim becomes "true" by being believed, however illogical and however much contradicted by evidence. It is created "reality"! A knowledge claim must be justified by evidence and logic. You just can't say anything you want and have it accepted as true. Knowledge is discovered reality.
Posted by:Bill RohanNovember 21, 2007 1:55:06 PMRespond ^
The military clearly should not be pushing a particular religious point of view, or bringing in a singer to do so. The guy could sing at some church near the military base and servicemen can go to the church to see him if they wish. One of the main reasons I gave part of my life to the military was protect all Americans' freedom to practice or not practice religion as they see fit. We need to stop this Christian fascism taking over our country before we lose everything that makes America great. By the way, "In God We Trust" did not show up on our coins until 1864. We had it right to begin with....
Posted by:David Josephs, USMC VetNovember 21, 2007 1:56:08 PMRespond ^
If Debbie and Eric Horner really did post, here is my response: You have a 'military ministry' mentioned very prominently on your website; your site mentions 'military' or 'soldiers' 2.5 times more than you mention salvation and Jesus total. So, who are you really serving? Is it God, or Caeser [who was a military leader]?
Posted by:Karen CookNovember 21, 2007 1:56:10 PMRespond ^
Mother Jones a minor publication...do your research Eurono. Mr. Mike Riley, I think no one that reads and posts here regualrly will lose any sleep about you never visiting the site again. However, I might point out that you should not be scared at the prospect of learning something. Especially if it breaks your quiant outlook on the good ole USofA and informs you that this "great country" is not always so great.
Posted by:NateNovember 21, 2007 2:36:57 PMRespond ^
EXACTLY!
Posted by:pwdeemNovember 21, 2007 4:11:36 PMRespond ^
"Christians" are not trustworthy.
Posted by:pwdeemNovember 21, 2007 4:15:08 PMRespond ^
Exactly!
Posted by:pwdeemNovember 21, 2007 4:17:10 PMRespond ^
Hmmmm, "non-mandatory", eh? Reminds me of when I was in basic training in the USAF. We were informed that attending religious services on Sunday morning was "non-mandatory", but that the TI had a detail planned for those who stayed behind. I guess there's "non-mandatory" and there's"voluntary" - don't mistake the two.
Posted by:cwnidogNovember 21, 2007 4:25:51 PMRespond ^
You Christians are all nuts, soft in the head, from our little emperor with his mercenary army, to the nine that sit on the high court and to the moronic half of the country that put them on their thrones. We're fighting a religious war, have no doubt,and we will for sure, absolutely for sure, lose...
Posted by:India JonesNovember 21, 2007 4:42:15 PMRespond ^
The minute some soldier thinks he's "fighting for Jesus" he's that much more likely NOT to question the political decisions that put him in harm's way, and that much more likely to join the ranks of evangelicals voting for Republicans. Sometimes the gears of indoctrination in this country are all too obvious.
Posted by:TritonPSHNovember 22, 2007 12:29:53 AMRespond ^
Iraqi invasion is not for Oil, not for WMD, and not for Democracy. It is an invasion for conversion. Please view You Tube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m61elAh5F1c
Posted by:Mohmed ZarookNovember 22, 2007 7:24:28 AMRespond ^
I am not affiliated with a religion and I don't find it offensive that Eric Horner be allowed to perform for our troops any time or place... and he ought to be allowed to sing his lyrics. BUT, attendance should be optional, payment should be no more or less than other performers, and other musicians with different beliefs should be allowed to sing their own lyrics too. The problem is not with Mr. Horner but with the military endorsing him and forcing soldiers to attend his shows. As much as I dislike the tactics and attitude of some evangelicals I'm happy to let them do their thing as long as I'm free to dissent and ignore them just as they are free to disagree with my beliefs. Our soldiers are obligated to do enough things already - lets not force them to do anything in their "free" time that they don't want to do.
Posted by:JulieNovember 22, 2007 7:56:25 AMRespond ^
The ongoing subversion of the Constitution by this criminal junta will only end when the new president takes the oath of office in January 2009. This is nothing new, of course, for a regime that has made perverting the Constitution its most defining act.
Posted by:Michael J. GermainNovember 22, 2007 7:59:54 AMRespond ^
Are you nuts? You DO understand the Constitution, don't you? Obviously not.
Posted by:Michael J. GermainNovember 22, 2007 8:01:02 AMRespond ^
Ah religion, the oldest profession. What? Yes, its true, for some time the oldest profession has been hiding behind the skirts of prostitution by calling it the oldest profession; not by a long shot! When Bojojo, a Neanderthal, some 120,000 years ago rolled them bones and asked the great Geekiguma to kick the crap out of Dudoduma because he prayed to Gockiguma the olodest profession, religon, got its start, or somewhere and when about then. The cave drawings and burial sites of Neanderthal are a search for some sort of mystical direction and whatever direction they took they "really" believed they were right. Amen, Just as the Hindus do and the Muslims do (all 1.7 billion of them) and the Christians, some 700 million and dropping, they all believe they are right. But what they all are is delusional and paranoid and also very, very dangerous! Either you are Christian, I mean Muslim, no Hindu, no, no, a Sphagettirastufarian or you are dead! That's right it all started over 100,000 years ago and the crazies have fabricated all kinds of deities and theologies to fit their crazy mind set. There is no doubt that some of the principles of most religions are good for society but that's it. Religion has served its purpose of imposing a moral code on a civilization that wasn't too civilized in the "olden days" but its time is past. Let mankind find the path to true brotherhood based on peace, fraternity, ethical prosperity and regard for life. The time has come to dump all religion before these barbaric, death, embracing fanatics engulf all of humanity in a religious nuclear, zealous cleansing!
Posted by:Al ComstockNovember 22, 2007 8:47:52 AMRespond ^
The U.S. Constitution: freedom of religion and freedom of speech. I understand perfectly. I am not threatened by the freedom of others to speak their mind, are you? Why? The Constitution does NOT say the government can promote or endorse one religion or kind of speech over others... THAT is the danger here.
Posted by:JulieNovember 22, 2007 9:56:59 AMRespond ^
Mr. Harkinson: This was not a good representation of "writing tight" which is one of the first things learned in Journalism school. Most of the vital information could have been written in less than half of the 15 paragraphs in the story. Sentences with a word count 0f 28 need to be slashed, trimmed, and basically skinnied down. For the record, the name is the Lord, not "lord"; references to the President are always capitalized. The quality of content is seriously lacking anything news-worthy.
Posted by:WordEditingNovember 22, 2007 10:00:46 AMRespond ^
I certainly hope those t-shirts with the cross superimposed on an American flag aren't worn by our troops in Iraq (or anywhere else off-shore)! To any Islamist it would appear that the Crusaders are back....and to Horner, they are!
Posted by:old x-paratrooperNovember 22, 2007 10:24:53 AMRespond ^
Your a DICK LIBERAL! Get a grip on Life
Posted by:Bill G.November 22, 2007 10:33:41 AMRespond ^
Since the issue invovles the Constitution and military rules about endorsement, the test of whether these types of activities are tolerable and legal would involve the presence or lack thereof of other religious views. There is a problem in the fact that many other religions do not usually proselytize. However, the military authorities could set rules that said Chritian groups could perform and offer literature in so long as there is a reasonable presence of other religions. Somewhere, somehow some music and speakers representative of the culture of Hinduism, Judaism, Islam and others could be recruited. At the very least, the military ought to acquire and make available for free copies of the Koran and other religious texts. These could be displayed on a table with Bibles under a heading of "Religious Choices". I find something to learn from all religions. I find something to object to in most of the religions I have sutdied. I don't think we need to insult individuals who hold any particular belief system, and I do believe we must guard against the establishment of or imposition of, any one religion that is backed, supported, or endorsed by tax dollars. When our military personnel fight for actual freedom (and not for the benefit of oil and other corporate interests), I hope all understand that is one of the freedoms the are fighting for. By the way, I was myself raised in a fundamentalist Christian denomination although I began at a young age to seek a more rational, kind, loving, open minded spiritual path than the one I was first taught. Thank goodness I was allowed freedom of thought and access to other ways of looking at things.
Posted by:Linda MuralidharanNovember 22, 2007 10:57:46 AMRespond ^
This is why it is so important to understand and teach the true meanings behind religious myths: www.merrychristmyth.com
Posted by:Krishna KringleNovember 22, 2007 11:00:41 AMRespond ^
thanks to Eric Horner for clarifying some facts. Facts are good. However you lost me when say "crazy left wing days" when 65% of this country has been propagandized into believing that the constitution established us a "Christian nation". If the brown-skinned Jesus came back today he'd be called a liberal socialist (thats all it takes to shutdown right-wing brain activity), would be on the terrorist watch list, be sent to Gitmo or renditioned for water-boarding torture by this administration that thinks "give peace a chance" is a radical ideology. Praise the billionaire CEO and damn lazy welfare queen socialist grandma. What was that about the rich, a camel and a needle again? How about supporting the troops by standing up against this illegal and immoral occupation of Iraq and denouncing the lies told to get us into it? Oh thats right the religious right commandments include "thou shall bear false witness" and "the end justifies the means". Operation Iraq Liberation (O.I.L) isn't over till we have the oil laws signed and we've drained another nation of it's resources. Praise supply-side, nationalistic, Republican Jesus (not to be confused with the humanistic one of biblical fame).
Posted by:russrNovember 22, 2007 11:08:30 AMRespond ^
"You know, it turns out that our military, praise God, is a volunteer force." I was going to start this response with something like "witess hypocrite" but I will hold back. The methods and sanctions used by these so called servants of God in the military are clearly an adaption of commercial business for God. You may like the brand of religion that has the ear of power now, but what will you say when Christian Science or the Unitarians have gained a foothold. My method of Christianity does not rely on external stimulation or entertainment extravaganzas. Some folks have corrupted the temple as money changers. Are you one? Think a bit before you get those knees jerking all over the place. The tide aways turns. Lantern Bearer
Posted by:Lantern BearerNovember 22, 2007 12:48:35 PMRespond ^
Has Horner ever visited a military hospital to perform before amputees,men and women who have lost limbs, and others burned beyond recognition? I wonder if he has, what the audience thought about the God-loves-you blather he sings about. Better yet, I wonder if he's visited a Veteran's hospital to see the lines waiting for care that is being curtailed more and more by George Bush, an exemplary Christian according to some, an incarnate devil according to others--like myself.
Posted by:Martin YoungNovember 22, 2007 3:32:03 PMRespond ^
From a soldier's point of view - I had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Horner while in the VA hospital just outside of Ft. Gordan, GA - recovering from injuries sustained while serving in Iraq. Mr. Horner, his wife and a very young man & his father visited with many of us soldiers and left us feeling better than before they came. Mr. Horner gave each of us a CD and the young man gave us cards from his class at school. Although we were told that he was a christian singer - Mr Horner never mentioned anything about it. He simply wanted me to know that he appreciated my sacrifice on his behalf. It's a shame that all Americans don't support us soldiers like Mr. Horner. I've never seen him again but he certainly impressed myself and my buddies with his sincerity and kindness. Justin - A thankful soldier (medically retired)
Posted by:Iraq VetNovember 22, 2007 5:08:10 PMRespond ^
Great discourse on this article! Maybe the Horners should re-visit their scriptures to be reminded that Jesus is the Prince of Peace and "blessed are the peace makers for they will be called the children of God." This U- rah-rah ultra-nationalism in the name of Jesus is simply not biblical. I would add that Jesus would endorse aiding and abetting the enemy as a means of obtaining peace. It's all there in the Bible.
Posted by:JeffNovember 22, 2007 10:00:20 PMRespond ^
I think I am going to puke !
Posted by:Don SchneiderNovember 23, 2007 5:45:37 AMRespond ^
Sad that the US military officers who encourage the blurring of the separation of church and state guaranteed by our constitution all took an oath to defend that very document when they first accepted their commissions.
Posted by:GregNovember 23, 2007 5:49:26 AMRespond ^
The military youth being brainwashed into being crusaders,frightening. The new recruits 17 into their 20's are easily brainwashed, the military knows it and is using this opportunity to turn these troops into mindless, soulless zombies who are reminiscent of the so called children crusaders who were the most vicious of all the christian crusaders of the middle ages. They only lacked discipline but otherwise killed anyone who stood in their path mercilessly, women , children, young, old and this was before reaching Holy Land of Jerusalem. These zombie soldiers are being forged into a force for the eventual purpose of a military coup of the USA.That along with government funded private armies created by fundamentalist christians, Eric Prince of Blackwater, is cause for concern. A word to the wise is sufficient.
Posted by:bogi666November 23, 2007 8:27:39 AMRespond ^
Good observation and comments. These pretend christian churchianity-religionists don't read the Bible, they make their own bibles up knowing that the young military recruits are the most susceptible member of society to being brainwashed, otherwise they wouldn't have joined the military in the first place. Anyone that thinks this is a haphazard program need to refer to the Bible[KJV] and what it means about the Beast which is the One World System of Satan. The pretend christian preachers are the Harlots of the Bible and their false doctrines are the Fornications of the Bible and the U.S. Military is being forged into an instrument of enforcing the One World System of the Beast.
Posted by:bogi666November 23, 2007 8:39:34 AMRespond ^
The only solution for dealing with these men is to extinguish them from the planet, since that is what they have planned for everyone else besides them. For neocons and zionists- they urgently request their own extinction through their beliefs of being the sole heirs to this earth. Stamp them out, then you can have peace.
Posted by:DilbertartianNovember 23, 2007 10:40:01 AMRespond ^
Many people responding with indignation over objections to Mr. Horner are missing the boat: The separation between church and state. This kind of thing ought not to be going on in the military. Religion is personal and should stay that way. Tell me, does a man serve his country less if he's agnostic as opposed to Christian? I think not. So, let's cut it out. Not everyone gets an uplifting, warm fuzzy feeling from evangelical music. It makes many feel uncomfortable, in fact. Let's put preaching back in the pulpit where it belongs. It has no place in the government and military.
Posted by:Deb Della PianaNovember 23, 2007 6:46:43 PMRespond ^
So my question is, "How in the world do we fix this?" Because I assure everyone that this mindless name-calling and mudslinging will go nowhere. I'm so tired of the words "all Christians" and whatever pro-military, anti-military, pro-God, anti-Christian rhetoric many people are using as though their answer is just sublime. I'm an anti-war, former military, Mother Jones reading pastor and second-year seminary student. In other words, I CARE TOO! Of course it's ridiculous if attendance is mandatory and I wouldn't be surprised if that is the case. In boot camp I had to be quite creative in getting out of attending worship services. I was 18 and writing letters to my mama was more important than God to me at the time. And no, the Jesus I follow today would certainly not be happy with the imperialistic policy of the current administration and would cringe at the Christian right's alliance with the Emperor. Many of today's Christians are the Pharisees and Sadducees of Jesus' time. And whether or not God exists, I suppose I'll have to wait like the rest of you to find out. I hope so, I hope this isn't all there is. In the meantime, does anyone have any ideas on how to make things better? Stop throwing insults!!! Let's start there. And please Mother Jones, keep bringing these articles to light so we have a forum for these discussions; just please try to make sure your reporters aren't misrepresenting the facts or themselves.
Posted by:JLGNovember 23, 2007 10:24:06 PMRespond ^
Who Would Jesus Bomb?
Posted by:KimSuNovember 24, 2007 7:15:31 AMRespond ^
Eric Horner Thanks for taking the time to tell us the real story. 35 years retired US military I knew this was a brazen and deliberate attempt to spread a lie. But knowing this publication I think they well understand that a lie can be half way around the world before the truth can get its socks on and that is their intent and too many in this audience is apparently so inclined to accept the MEJ's reports as a truth that supports their intentions. Just like the Pravda of old - if it is a lie that supported the cause its purpose was considered a truth that supported the spread of communism. And now that you know the real intent of Mother Earth Jones I hope your prayers are answered.
Posted by:ClintonNovember 24, 2007 5:19:36 PMRespond ^
Mr. Weinstein should welcome the Eric Horners of the world, they are the cornerstone of Israel's support among America's brain-impaired.
Posted by:FrankNovember 25, 2007 7:51:22 AMRespond ^
How can we ask these young people to kill and be killed in order to defend Rights we deny them, such as Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion? I have no doubt that attendance at Horner's concert was mandatory, and that it would have been low if it hadn't been mandatory. Even Christian like myself often can't stand listening to evanglicals.
Posted by:C L AtkinsNovember 25, 2007 1:32:18 PMRespond ^
Wow this has struck a cord hasn't it. Lots of Posts. Well said Lynn Davis. If this article does anything it settles the arguement for independent media and media consolidation's role in undermining our democracy. There must be a seperation of church and state to maintain a democracy. I firmly believe that evangelizing to the military is wrong. Providing religious services. Great. But not evangelizing. It infringes on the rights and liberties of those who have a different faith than the evangelizers. Besides, Jesus was the biggest pacifist ever. I believe he looks upon these people with sad compassion.
Posted by:NakisNovember 26, 2007 8:10:46 AMRespond ^
Have you seen Horner Ministries' mission statement? 1. Introduce the lost to Christ 2. Encourage the discouraged 3. Challenge Believers 4. Motivate the complacent 5. Celebrate our nation and the blessing of being an American 6. Honor our veterans and active military who have sacrificed for our freedom 7. Strengthen families Yeah, sounds like a real bad person. Well, what do you expect from "Smart, fearless journalism"
Posted by:RaulNovember 26, 2007 8:18:20 AMRespond ^
The Nazis had musicians play music while the victims of the holocaust marched to their deaths. Deja vu.
Posted by:dadpasadenaNovember 26, 2007 12:37:42 PMRespond ^
Regarding the comment about the Horner Ministries mission statement, what the person who wrote that probably doesn't know is that the Horners changed that mission statement after this article came out. In fact, they made numerous changes to their website in the wake of this article, making their website seem to support their comments, and giving the impression that the article was way off base. Anyone reading their website now would certainly wonder what the big deal was. Knowing that websites often change in cases like this, however, MRFF had saved copies of all the relevant pages of the Horner Ministries website as they appeared at the time of the article, so, I am now going to list all the changes they made. ----------- First, the mission statement ----------- The following was Horner's mission statement as it appeared on his homepage prior to the article. ----------- Ministry Mission Statement It is our mission to submit our lives and our gifts unto the Lord for His use alone. We will strive to achieve the following in every worship service or concert presentation we do. We will seek to 1. Introduce the lost to Christ 2. Encourage the discouraged 3. Challenge Believers 4. Motivate the complacent 5. Celebrate our nation and the blessing of being an American 6. Honor our veterans who have sacrificed for our freedom 7. Honor and minister to our active military 8. Strengthen families It is our intent to be a ministry to America basing scripturally on 2 Chronicles 7:14. For we truly believe that “United We’ll Stand, When Together We Kneel”. ----------- The Horners changed two things in this.----------- 1) They deleted the whole second sentence to get rid of the "every worship service or concert presentation we do" statement. 2) There are now 7 items on the list instead of 8. They combined numbers 6 and 7 into one item that says "Honor our veterans and active military who have sacrificed for our freedom," getting rid of the phrase "minister to our active military" that was previously in item number 7. ----------- The entire thing now reads: Ministry Mission Statement It is our mission to submit our lives and our gifts unto the Lord for His use alone. We will seek to 1. Introduce the lost to Christ 2. Encourage the discouraged 3. Challenge Believers 4. Motivate the complacent 5. Celebrate our nation and the blessing of being an American 6. Honor our veterans and active military who have sacrificed for our freedom 7. Strengthen families It is our intent to be a ministry to America basing scripturally on 2 Chronicles 7:14. For we truly believe that “United We’ll Stand, When Together We Kneel”. ----------- Here are some other changes, which even include the doctoring of quotes from General Petraeus and another officer ----------- The link on his website that used to say "Military Ministry" was changed to "Military Motivational Concerts" ----------- The name of the link to "Military Ministry Video" was changed to "Military Motivational Video." ----------- In the quote from Petraeus, the word "patriotic" was added before "performances" so that the first sentence now reads: "I appreciate your patriotic performances for our soldiers and their families," instead of the original "I appreciate your performances for our soldiers and their families." ----------- In the quote from Colonel Hayden, the word "patriotic" was added before "message," so it now reads: "Your patriotic message is VERY powerful for them," instead of "Your message is VERY powerful for them." ----------- In the statement on the homepage that used to say "We are a full time music ministry taking a God and country message to churches, military bases, and festivals all across America," the words "military bases" was replaced with "concert halls," so it now reads: "We are a full time music ministry taking a God and country message to churches, concert halls, and festivals all across America." ----------- Horner also suddenly seems not to want anyone to know that he is scheduled to do another concert at Fort Jackson on December 2. Prior to this article, his events page listed -- "Sunday December 02, 2007, Ft. Jackson, SC, Concert for the Troops, Solomon Center, Times to be updated - mulitple [sic] concerts, Tenative schedule - 2:00 pm, Ft. Jackson Army Base." Now it says: "Sunday December 02, 2007, Private Date." ----------- Then there's this bizarre little disclaimer on Horner's newly retitled "Military Motivational Concerts" page, just below the photos and endorsements from Petraeus and the other officers: "These are letters of thanks and comments received and in no way should be considered endorsements by these individuals." I think maybe someone needs to point Mr. Horner to a dictionary and have him look up the word endorsement. ----------- The Horners certainly seem to be doing a lot of track covering for people who insist that there's nothing wrong with what they're doing.
Posted by:Chris RoddaNovember 26, 2007 2:14:19 PMRespond ^
The Horners, quick to respond to Josh Harkinson's MoJo blog post, which has only been up for a few hours, just changed their website again! They now have their addition of the word "patriotic" in the Petraeus quote in brackets, so it reads: "I appreciate your [patriotic] performances for our soldiers and their families." Let's see how long they take to bracket the same addition in the quote from Col. Hayden that I just pointed out in the comment I made!
Posted by:Chris RoddaNovember 26, 2007 3:05:51 PMRespond ^
Wow, they're fast! In the last few minutes, they bracketed "patriotic" in Hayden quote! I might not recommend Eric Horner's ministry, but I would certainly recommend whoever updates their website!
Posted by:Chris RoddaNovember 26, 2007 3:16:50 PMRespond ^
And your point would be? hmmm the Horner's are updating their website? Heaven forbide! HAHAHA!
Posted by:Iraq VetNovember 26, 2007 3:31:39 PMRespond ^
Unbelieveable! Now the brackets are gone from the Hayden quote! Of course, I have saved each revision as it happened, so, if this is some attempt to make me look like a liar, it isn't going to work. I can easily post screen shots somewhere to back up everything I've posted here.
Posted by:Chris RoddaNovember 26, 2007 3:36:53 PMRespond ^
Ok someone get the straight jacket! Chris is going off the deep end! He's freaking out because some guy is making changes (improvements hopefully!) to his website! He's breaking every law in the book by doing that! Try hitting refresh ole Chrissie boy - works wonders!
Posted by:Iraq VetNovember 26, 2007 3:51:48 PMRespond ^
Well, the Horners just removed the "Military Ministry Video" (retitled "Military Motivational Video" in the initial changes) from their website entirely. I guess it dawned on them that this promotional video contains the same quotes that they are now doctoring on their website. Of course, we've already saved a copy of the video, so this is really kind of pointless at this stage in the game. We've also got plenty more evidence from other sources that I haven't even gotten to yet, but I'll give the Horners a chance to doctor the quotes in the video to match their website before I start posting any of that.
Posted by:Chris RoddaNovember 26, 2007 5:58:49 PMRespond ^
Ok dude - now you are really getting freaky. You are beginning to show signs of being obsessed with this guy. Are you in love with him?? So freakin what if the guy makes updates on his website? He owns it doesn't he? You really need to get a grip on life and reality dude. Go read a book or hug a tree or something worthwhile. We don't CARE if some guy wants to make changes on a website!
Posted by:USTrooperNovember 26, 2007 8:59:50 PMRespond ^
USTrooper, I care about the web changes, especially since they refer to information that Mr. and Mrs. Horner contradicted in their comments here. And please drop the homophobic and tree-hugging cliches. Points are actually given for original thought, here in the world at large.
Posted by:CDNovember 26, 2007 9:10:44 PMRespond ^
USTrooper and Iraq Vet are just employing the typical religious right tactics of pretending they don't understand the point, and then creating a strawman, in this case, the right of someone to make changes to their website. I'm sure they understand as well as any of the other readers here that the Horners' website changes were clearly made for the purpose of making their website match their comments, so that anyone looking at the site now would believe them. I was going to respond by posting a link to a previous version of their site so that people could compare the two versions for themselves, but it appears that the horners may have put a robots.txt file put on their server to block access to previous versions in the internet Archive Wayback Machine. This could also just be a Wayback Machine server problem, so I'll try again later, but it seems a bit coincidental that these pages suddenly became inaccessible today. Fortunately, however, the old pages are still in the Google and other search engine caches, so those can still be viewed until the next time thry're crawled. Since the Google ones have the cache date, I'll post the links to those so that anyone who wants to can see and compare them. Google cache of homepage as of November 21 -- http://www.google.com/search?q =cache:ZVEXoZcr58oJ:www.ericho rner.com/+Eric+Horner&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us -- Google cache of Military Ministry page as of November 20 -- http://www.google.com/search?q =cache:UrAjRKh_kcAJ:www.ericho rner.com/index.php%3Fp%3DmilitaryMi nistry+www.erichorner.com/index.php%3Fp%3DmilitaryMinistry&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us -- Google cache of Events as of November 19 -- http://www.google.com/search?q =cache:UqjrNMisT3kJ:www.ericho rner.com/index.php%3Fp%3DeventsSche dule+www.erichorner.com/index.php%3Fp%3DeventsSchedule&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us
Posted by:Chris RoddaNovember 26, 2007 9:58:18 PMRespond ^
So Chris you are saying that you have spoken to the Horner's and you know this for a fact? Or are you just guessing that they are making changes to their website because of you? You know - maybe they are trying to make sure their site is politically correct to avoid being harrassed and attacked by people like you. Do you always think the very worst of people - or just people you have developed a grudge for? You are really spending a lot of time harrassing and tracking these folks aren't you? Exactly what is your agenda for hounding these folks? Cause from where I am sitting - it sure looks like you are going off the deep end on this one and just making up what you think instead of reporting FACTS.
Posted by:Iraq VetNovember 27, 2007 6:28:36 AMRespond ^
Apparently, you missed my first comment where I said I work for the Military Religious Freedom Foundation. Investigating and documenting cases of unconstitutional religious activity in the military IS MY JOB!!! I don't normally participate in forums like this, but the Horners' comments here prompted me to jump into this one. Their subsequent changes to their website, in what appears to me to be an attempt to support their accusations that Josh was lying in his article have made me stick around. If I wasn't participating in this discussion, I would still be gathering more evidence and documenting all of this. You just wouldn't have known about it.
Posted by:Chris RoddaNovember 27, 2007 7:16:28 AMRespond ^
Several people mention in these posts that the concerts and entertainment are not mandatory - but did you notice what "concert" this article spoke of. It was a military graduation service with the President of the United States present. Most soldiers, regardless of their political affiliation, will definitely attend a presentation by their commander-in-chief. And I'm guessing that those graduating recruits were not offered an alternative venue or entertainment option for their graduation ceremony. I am a Christian and a veteran and I think what Eric Horner does is wonderful, but he should not be performing at official military functions with military endorsement and sponsored with tax dollars. Mr. Horner, keep doing what you're doing, but not there.
Posted by:DianeNovember 27, 2007 7:21:21 AMRespond ^
We have established that the POW/MIA concert at Fort Benning was, in fact, mandatory. The base denied this, but the Horners themselves said it was. This left us with one against one. But, upon further investigation, I did find further evidence. The key evidence, however, is in an online diary of the mother of a soldier who was there. She mentions names, and since I have no desire to invade someone's privacy any more than is necessary for MRFF's investigation, I'm not going to post the details of this in a public forum.
Posted by:Chris RoddaNovember 27, 2007 7:41:48 AMRespond ^
APPEARS is the key word there Chris. It also APPEARS that you are stalking these people. Have you attended one of Mr. Horner's concerts? Do you know for a FACT that he sang religious songs at mandatory functions? FACTS Chris - not APPEARS. Diane - so what you are saying is because Mr. Horner proclaims to be a Christian - he should not be allowed to present a patriotic concert for the soldiers or President? Do you know exactly which songs Mr. Horner sang at this event with the President? If so - post them for everyone to see the facts - not heresay. Out of curiousity - I went and listened to the CD sound bytes that Mr. Horner claims he sings at the secular events - They were upbeat, rock n' roll songs - nothing different from what Toby Keith is singing - (except they weren't trashy) - over in Iraq and to these very same soldiers. There was also nothing religious about any of those songs. So if these are the songs Mr Horner IS singing at these mandatory concerts - where is the problem? Or does he not have the same rights as Toby Keith to support the military personal? Do you also know which events he was hired by MWR or the Chaplains at? Everyone is so quick to assume things because MoJo reported it - but obviously the reporter didn't get his facts right or do his homework very well if he had to come back in and retract things he originally reported. What I see is a guy trying to support the military - unlike the Hollywood jerks. What have you done lately to support the military troops? I also checked out some of the photos posted - looked like everyone was having a blast in the photos. But that's just my humble opinion.
Posted by:Iraq VetNovember 27, 2007 7:48:47 AMRespond ^
I just realized after posting my last comment that I did mention this diary in my initial comments, and I did quote an short passage that contains only a first name. That brief quote should be enough to show why we are now convinced that that particular concert was mandatory.
Posted by:Chris RoddaNovember 27, 2007 7:53:19 AMRespond ^
In response to Iraq Vet, the only context in which I used the word APPEARS is that relating to the sudden changes to the Horners website. From the specific changes that they made, and the timing of these changes, I think it would APPEAR to any reasonable person that they are, in fact, trying to cover their tracks as a direct result of this article. As far as the evidence to support the FACTS about these concerts, such as whether they were put on by the MWR of the chaplains, we do have solid evidence to support all claims. We already have much more than what I've posted here, and we're far from being done with this investigation.
Posted by:Chris RoddaNovember 27, 2007 8:03:01 AMRespond ^
Would the military allow a Muslim entertainer such a free run of the camps?
Posted by:ChilesNovember 27, 2007 1:42:53 PMRespond ^
I suppose that since Hitler didn't kill all the Jews. Fundamentalists want to convert the remnant to Christianity and as if the military doesn't ignore Jewish holidays already; make things even more difficult for the Jew. I don't think you have to look to hard at the Bush administration to find favortism. Did you ever notice that faith based organizations helped by Bush are all Christian and none Jewish. You think that's coincidence.
Posted by:AndrewNovember 27, 2007 10:19:15 PMRespond ^
You know when you look at Debby Horners post in the comments and compare the syntax and writing style it looks ALOT like that of "Iraq Vet". Is there anyway that MotherJones could check to see if these Iraq Vet comments track back Debby's computer????
Posted by:Corey MorrisNovember 28, 2007 10:10:14 AMRespond ^
This article and many responses only prove my assertion that Americans have been brainwashed into the separation of church and state concepts. Jefferson himself, who is touted as the "father" of the philosophy, used federal funds to support religious matters be they charity or otherwise. The first amendment was not made to protect social indoctrination or secular thought, but rather to allow any religion or political belief to be voiced without the oppression of the prevailing government. I want them to hear the name of Jesus. I want them to have faith should they lose their lives while in service, but I also find that one must desire to come to the Lord and not be forced by humans. Having said that, I would hope performers make it clear to military leaders that they would prefer the performance be voluntary. I have concern for those who truly love our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The Republicans have heinously claimed some sort of alliance to Christianity but enact policies and greed-centered legislation which darkens the perception of the Church. I would suggest that true Christians either form a new party or disavow themselves of specific parties, rather impressing opinions and lobbying on all legislators regardless of political affiliation. After all, our kingdom is not of this world. Whether Republican, Democrat, Socialist, Communist, Fascist, Libertarian, Green, or Independent, we want to see men and women genuinely seeking out Lord Jesus to be saved by His blood and renewed in mind and spirit by His Spirit.
Posted by:Mark from PennsylvaniaNovember 28, 2007 11:26:47 AMRespond ^
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54349 That is simply a quick reference to an article concerning Jefferson's "gate" between church and state, not a wall. He still fiercely supported religious freedom as did the Quakers of Pennsylvania. After all, without religious freedom, we may one day also suffer discrimination and oppression, so it is in our best interest to spread the gospel and do our best, if possible, to live peaceably with all men (and women).
Posted by:Mark from PennsylvaniaNovember 28, 2007 11:33:37 AMRespond ^
Chris Rodda: While I do find your efforts here a bit obsessive (I guess you could just say you a good at your job) I appreciate the watch dog attitude. The Word of God says that if you are ashamed of the gospel, than He will be ashamed of you on judgement day. The Horners have done nothing wrong. If there is any wrong it would be on the part of the military making these performances mandatory. The Horners should not be ashamed now for fear of losing a paying gig.
Posted by:AaronNovember 30, 2007 12:11:33 AMRespond ^
Mark in Penn, Great post. I couldn't agree more with all you have said.
Posted by:AaronNovember 30, 2007 12:14:12 AMRespond ^
"In response to this story Horner asserted that the version of "Press On" sung to troops does not reference Jesus, and denied singing either version of the song at the show" Well, let's see what a plain english translation sounds like: "The version I sung didn't say anything about Jesus! No! Wait! I didn't sing *ANY* version of the song! Yeah! Yeah! That's the ticket!" Sounds to me like Horner forgot the one little commandment Pentecostals ALWAYS forget: "Thou shalt not lie"... Oh, and Aaron: blow it out your ass. Everyone is sick of you calling anything non-religious a "competing religion". You have as much honor in that argument as the snake in the garden of eden. IMHO, we have a serious National Security problem if 30% of the military subscribes to the Dominionist movement. Their goal is replacement of the Constitution and Instutitutions of the Government with the bible and preachers respectively. IMHO, that is hardcore *TREASON*!!!
Posted by:EnderWDecember 22, 2007 10:35:42 AMRespond ^
On further thought, I think this is being framed completely wrong. This is n't a religious choice or freedom from religion issue. Given the estimate of 30% of the MILITARY belonging to a religious movement that wants to replace the Constitution with the bible and the Goverment with the church, this is now a SERIOUS NATIONAL SECURITY THREAT!!! We have Generals operating against the Constitution and country as a result of their belief on Dominionism. These Generals are forcing the Men to be forcible proselytized into this movement. Are the Pentecostals turning our own military against the Constitution? That's the way it appears. The penalty for TREASON is Death.
Posted by:EnderWDecember 22, 2007 10:41:36 AMRespond ^
I might add that after reading: http://www.cadence.org/home/who-we-are/a-strategic-ministry/ I think that anyone who has gone through that should have their security clearance stripped.
Posted by:EnderWDecember 22, 2007 10:44:29 AMRespond ^
In my 23 years service I was occasionally allowed to choose between "strictly voluntary" attendance at overtly religious events or some other equally fun activity like scrubbing toilets. I opted for toilets. That said I support the military chapels, the are great for those of a spiritual bent. As an NCO with quite a few troops under my wings I never hesitated to direct them to chapel personell or services when I thought it in the best interest of the troop and compatible with thier stated beliefs. I even have a live and let live attitude about the many official functions I had to attend that were kicked off with a prayer. Heck, I even shocked a chaplain by telling him I was a secular humanist and did not believe in God. He just could not believe that after I had been very helpfull to him and his mission of providing for the spiritual needs of my fellow Airmen. Chaplains are great for many of our troops but I have had my arm twisted more than once and it left me a bit angry. It is great having these programs on base but these folks need to lay off the arm twisting! Now retired and working as a civilian contractor in Afghanistan one of the MANDATORY steps I had to take along with all the issuing of equipment and medical clearance to get here was speaking to a chaplain. I could not procede to Afghanistan and do my job till I got the chaplains signature on my processing checklist. I respectfully told the chaplain I had no need of his services or the religious material he had available. He asked about my spiritual beliefs and the arm twisting began. After 20 minutes I just accepted a small bible and promised to have a look at it to get him to sign my paperwork. I later respectfully placed the bible in a common area where some one who wanted it could take it. This leads me to two points. 1- It sure would be grand if you religious folks would show me as much respect as I show you. 2- I got one word for those who claim no officially sanctioned religious arm twisting happens in the armed forces.....LIAR!
Posted by:Secular Humanist VetJanuary 9, 2008 4:27:11 AMRespond ^