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Las Vegas Smackdown? Nah, Clinton, Obama, and Edwards Play to a Draw

Is that the best they got?

Anyone who watched Thursday night's Democratic presidential debate hoping to see Barack Obama or John Edwards tear Hillary Clinton apart had to be disappointed. In the run-up to the this face-off in Las Vegas, both Edwards and Obama had intensified their attacks on the woman leading in the polls. And with the most recent survey in Iowa showing the race in that all-important state tightening to almost a three-way tie, there was reason to assume that Edwards and Obama would continue the assault.

They did try, but at the end of the two-hour event it was hardly apparent that they had scored any new points. Why not? There were two main reasons. First, Clinton was well prepped for the slams. Second, the attackers had no new ammo to fire at her. Moreover, the audience at the debate was not eager to see Dem-on-Dem violence, and people in the crowd booed when a knife came out.

The first question addressed the meme of the evening. CNN's Campbell Brown asked Clinton to respond to the Obama/Edwards charge that she avoids taking stands on tough issues and practices the politics of parsing. She had her lines down. Joking that her pants suit was made of asbestos, she insisted she had been fighting for women, children, working families, and union members for 35 years and that in this critical election the Democrats must pick a candidate "who's been tested and who is ready to lead on day one." This has been her pitch from day one--and it's a jab at Obama, the freshman senator.

Next Wolf Blitzer gave Obama the chance to advance his offensive against Clinton. Noting that Obama a few nights ago had suggested that Clinton is "triangulating" and "running a textbook Washington campaign," he asked Obama what he meant by that. Obama essentially repeated what he had previously said: Clinton's botched answer in the previous debate to a question about awarding driver's licenses to illegal immigrants and her less-than-specific response to queries about Social Security show she cannot provide "straight answers to tough questions" and cannot respond to the American people's desire for a "different kind of politics" that challenges the "standard practices of Washington."

This was not a major blast. Clinton retorted by accusing Obama of not "stepping up" on universal health care because his health care proposal would not create mandates that force people to obtain insurance. The two then engaged in a rather wonkish back-and-forth on their health care plans. Actually, a calm and detailed discussion about the differences in their plans would have made for an interesting debate. But this exchange looked more personal than policy.

Then it was Edwards' turn. Blitzer asked Edwards to explain his charge that Clinton is a politician who parses. The former one-term senator suggested Clinton could not be trusted because she has said she will end the Iraq war but would still keep some troops there and because she recently voted (with 70-plus other senators) to declare the Iranian Revolutionary Guard a terrorist outfit (which could help the Bush administration cook up a case for war). Edwards also maintained that Clinton is a defender of a "broken" and "rigged" Washington system.

She fired back, saying she didn't mind taking shots on the issues but she resented anyone throwing mud at her that is "right out of the Republican playbook." Not content to play defense, she went on the offense, pointing out that when Edwards ran for vice president in 2004 he did not advocate universal health care but does so in this campaign. So perhaps he's the flip-flopper.

In these opening skirmishes, no one gained ground. But that was good news for Hillaryites. She held her own, and neither Obama nor Edwards advanced their critique of her.


From that point on, the debate settled down, and the candidates proceeded to agree more than not on most of the issues. There were some splits. Not all the Democrats supported issuing driver's licenses to illegal immigrants. Clinton, Edwards, Biden and Dodd said no; Obama and Richardson said yes. (Kucinich told Blitzer he "took exception" to the term "illegal immigrants" because people cannot be "illegal.") Most of the aspirants urged some sort of education reform. Bill Richardson called for a national service program. Joe Biden touted his proposal for dealing with the Pakistan crisis. Chris Dodd said he was opposed to the Peru trade accord, noting Clinton and Obama support it. Obama called for sending U.S. inspectors to China to safeguard food and products made there for export to the United States.

There was a scuffle over the Iran legislation vote. Biden called it "counterproductive" and a "serious mistake." Edwards decried the bill as a blank check for the Bush administration and neocon hawks. Clinton defended her vote for the measure and asserted she has been working for months with other senators to prevent Bush from attacking Iran on his own. But when Obama and Edwards attempted to revive the case against Clinton, audience members jeered.

At one point, Obama and Clinton tussled over Social Security. He called for lifting the cap that restricts the Social Security payroll tax to only the first $93,000 of income. Clinton countered that a compete removal of this cap would lead to a $1 trillion tax on the middle class. Obama saw an opening. He replied that since only 6 percent of Americans earn more than $93,000, calling this move a middle-class tax increase was dishonest. "Playing with numbers to make a point," he said, was "the kind of thing I would expect from Mitt Romney or Rudy Giuliani." People in the auditorium booed. For them, comparing Clinton to the Republican leaders was going too far. Obama didn't try that again.

During the debate, the back-of-the-packers all showed their strengths. (Biden had several moments of humor.) And the three leading contenders put in performances similar to earlier debate appearances. Clinton was back on her game. Edwards seemed more confident in swinging at Clinton than did Obama. And Obama was not able to match the intensity and passion of his much-praised speech at the Jefferson Jackson Dinner on Saturday night.

It may be that at this point in the race no single debate will change the overall dynamic of the Democratic contest. Which means that the decisive factors for Iowa and the other early states will be the organizing abilities of the campaigns, the stump performances of the candidates, and the impact of the ad barrages that have begun. What the candidates and their campaigns do off the national stage will be what counts.






Comments

DC,

I watched a little - recorded it with the intention of watching it.

Obama did not seem very clear, HRC still bugs me, Edwards should do and say more Dodd, Biden and Richardson about the same.

I still support Kucinich and will do so until the primaries are over.

Thanks

Posted by: capt on 11/16/07 at 6:06 AM  Respond

David, enjoy your columns. Hillary is professional and I look forward to voting for her. It will take her eight years to fix George W's mess.

B.Lay

Posted by: b.lay on 11/16/07 at 6:19 AM  Respond

I'm with Kucinich too but will accept Edwards as Kucinich seems to not be catching up anytime soon. This debate news kinda bums me out. I'm really hoping someone takes Clinton out of the frontrunner spot, but it doesn't seem to be happening. She's another "New Democrat" spawned by the DLC to make Dems more conservative and business friendly after Reagan and Bush I, just like the post-Thatcher "New Labour" in Britain. I've had enough of them. They're all hawkish and pro-"free trade" aka international exploitation.

Posted by: James on 11/16/07 at 7:56 AM  Respond

""New Democrat" spawned by the DLC"

UGH!

Once again, I agree.

We will likely end up with GOP lite. That will bode poorly for the future on many issues.

Posted by: capt on 11/16/07 at 8:28 AM  Respond

What do you mean no one gained ground on Clinton? Didn't you catch Obama's exposure of her support for tax cuts for six percent of the country? Obama, Kucinich and Biden are the only candidates in this race who seem willing to debate REAL issues. thank you.

Posted by: nic on 11/16/07 at 10:35 AM  Respond

I am with Kucinich. Don't give up on this guy. He is the only clear voice out there.

The rest are just jiberish and double talk.

Hillary said nothing just talk.

Obama is full of himself and lime light is getting to him.

Edwards said a few things but no positive stance.

The rest are all but out.

Posted by: Croydon on 11/16/07 at 11:53 AM  Respond

I would like to know why each candidate is not addressed the same number of times.
It seems my candidate did not even get a my birthday present which was more time.
Richardson would be a very good Dem. candidate.
I think this is an issue that should be addressed.

Posted by: Grace Lundeen on 11/16/07 at 2:39 PM  Respond

Yes. A vote for Hillary is for a moderate GOP position. That could be less than awful, but I would love to see Obama's ideas for campaign reform (no money from federal lobbyists) catch on. I'm tired of politicians catering to big pharma, big oil, big job outsourcers,etc., with little regard for impact on wage earners and salaried workers. It seems to me that Hillary is bending to those "big" interests, and therefore, despite the fact that we share similar body parts (as referred to on Glenn Beck's show today), I'm not at the moment inclined to vote for her. Obama or Richardson or Edwards are more appealing to me.

Posted by: Karenesq on 11/16/07 at 2:42 PM  Respond

I thought there were more than four participants at the debate. The article may as well have been written about the Springer show or one of the other contentious shows on TV.

Posted by: RDBrian on 11/16/07 at 2:49 PM  Respond

Anybody else notice Bill Richardson spoke to the issue of licenses and nobody is even talking about it?

We have had licenses for undocumented persons for over a year and the statistics Bill Richardson quoted are astounding.

Here is the original pdf file:

http://www.governor.state.nm.us/press/2006/feb/022106_02.pdf

No MSM mention of how well it has worked here. Although we have never had a huge problem with any driving issues except drunk driving. Ever month or two we have some drunk take out a car load of people. The drunks are always "legal" and documented. Go figure.

Posted by: capt on 11/16/07 at 2:52 PM  Respond

[I thought there were more than four participants at the debate.]

You need a copy of the "MSM Subliminal Nighttime Learning Course: 2008 Democratic Primary Edition"
All our reporters swear by it.

You simply put the tiny little speaker under your pillow and go to sleep to a barely audible:
Clinton, Obama, Edwards...
Clinton, Obama, Edwards...
Clinton, Obama, Edwards...
Clinton, Obama, Edwards...
Richardson...
Clinton, Obama, Edwards...
Clinton, Obama, Edwards...
Clinton, Obama, Edwards...
Clinton, Obama, Edwards...

Posted by: MSM on 11/16/07 at 3:28 PM  Respond

What is with this audience defending Clinton whenever others attempted to critique her?

Have the corporations which own HRC planted their cronies into the audience?

Kucinich truly speaks to my heart as a candidate for the people. Edwards might be an acceptable alternative.

Posted by: ddoorn on 11/16/07 at 3:45 PM  Respond

Obama has a point regarding social security. Categorizing any part of the top 6% income earners as middle class is very misleading. It is far past time to shift the majority of the tax burden back to the people who have all the money.

Posted by: Paul Armstrong on 11/16/07 at 3:45 PM  Respond

[It is far past time to shift the majority of the tax burden back to the people who have all the money.]

Our Political Oligarchy?

I'll go for THAT!

Constitutional Amendment Time! Confine income taxes to people who hold elective office and are in a position to pass tax laws, and unelected bureaucrats who are in a position to write and enforce tax regulations!

Let the politicians pay for Their OWN schemes.

Posted by: MSM on 11/16/07 at 4:38 PM  Respond

The questions asked during the debate were planned by CNN, not the voters. Why were Kucinich and Richardson almost ignored and why did no one ask about the financing of the schemes that they are proposing ?
Kusinich was very clever. When he was not included in one discusion, he brought it up the next time he spoke. He is the candidate that will get my vote.

Posted by: Maureen Fahlberg on 11/16/07 at 5:02 PM  Respond

If Edwards was smart he would set himself apart from the other frontrunners and like Ron Paul say that he thinks that we should get out of Iraq completely ASAP. It is hard for met to be enthusiastic about any candidate that does not reject our current interventionist policies. If we have to intervene let it be with humanitarian aid rather than military, and stop selling weapons to other countries.

Posted by: Michael on 11/16/07 at 5:49 PM  Respond

Today Gov. Bill Richardson recieved his fifth nomination for the Nobel Peace Prize. His brave performance at last night's debate seems to have gone unnoticed. Last night he said Human Rights as the path to world peace would increase national security.
This is a message that is confirmed by a recent UN survey of US voter's attitudes.
What he is not is a dirty fighter. He is not there to tear into the other Democratic candidates, his intention is to give the voters the information they need to make an informed choice.
What you do with that information is up to you. Do you vote for the so called front runners because the media tells you that they are leading before a single vote has been cast? Or, do you look into what all the candidates have been saying?
Americans are not doing well this year, between the foreclosures of homes,47 million Americans without health insurance, knowing that 1/4 of the homeless population are veterans, skyrocketing prices, water issues,our declining dollar, abysmal standing in the world and the promise of a winter where many will not be able to afford to heat their homes, our people face a very difficult decision. Do they continue to go along with the 'conventional wisdom' that got us into this mess, or, do we try something new, like electing a president who can tackle these very real issues?
The four Senators in the race did not show up for a vote that confirmed a new Attorney General who would not admit that waterboarding is torture. Is this what Americans really want?To be known as bullys?
I think that what matters is not who gets in the most lethal jab at Hillary. what matters is that the American people get the information they need in order to make a decision.
My hope is that most take their responsibility as voters seriously, seeing beyond the
sensationalism that is seved up to us by an out of control news/entertainment industry.

Posted by: Brenda Siegelman on 11/16/07 at 6:38 PM  Respond

I support Edwards, but I was impressed by Obama's comments about Clinton's healthcare proposal. The 45 million plus Americans that do not have health care are not in that position because they are not being FORCED to have coverage, they are in that position because they either can't get it or they can't afford it, which really is pretty much one in the same. Pretty ironic that even this article's author (which I normally agree with, and recognize that he is one of the few who normally report the truth)doesn't bother to even mention in his reporting of that exchange with Clinton. Why so many people supposedly support Clinton amazes me no less than the idiots who have in the past, or do still do support Bush. If she ends up being our candidate in 2008, Americans will lose whether she wins or not. Any of the other Democratic candidates would be a better choice. As Forest Gump would say "thats all I've got to say about that". Now Hilaryites fire away with your insults and tianglulating, because that's what good little republicans do so well.

Posted by: Carl on 11/16/07 at 6:57 PM  Respond

don't like hillery comments on social security. can't force people to buy insurance, thatis not universal health care. I know how industry wants the government to force people to buy insurance. this is a stupid plan cooked up by the industry. if she can't see that she better not run. don't like her stand on iraq,stupid

Posted by: johnbartolero on 11/16/07 at 8:52 PM  Respond

don't like hillery comments on social security. can't force people to buy insurance, thatis not universal health care. I know how industry wants the government to force people to buy insurance. this is a stupid plan cooked up by the industry. if she can't see that she better not run. don't like her stand on iraq,stupid. that is reddictules, never posted here

Posted by: johnbartolero on 11/16/07 at 8:53 PM  Respond

I did not like the format of the debate. I agree that it was, overall, Obama, Clinton, Edwards. I do not like the fact that candidates were forced to answer "yes" or "no" to involved topics. I think the public deserves more and CNN was forcing the answers to be nothing more than sound bites for the 24/7 reporting until the Republican debate. There was also a sense, for me, that CNN had decided that Hillary "won" long before the debate began. I would like a true debate, with complete answers from ALL the candidates. Obama and Edwards did just fine against the favorite daughter, but so did Kucinich, Biden, Dodd, and Richardson. The voting booth is where those who feel as I do about these debates can clearly state what WE feel about the candidates, not what CNN says we feel.

Posted by: Pat C on 11/16/07 at 9:03 PM  Respond

I am continually struck by the narrowness of political discourse in U.S. presidential politics, and so I have to agree with a number of posts on the subject of Friday’s debate – Clinton, and for that matter much of the rest of the Democratic Party field, appears to be little more than Bush-lite.

As a Brit, and a socialist, I enjoy coming to the U.S. to remind myself by actually speaking to members of that huge, and never mentioned, group, the working class, that there is a massive constituency for real change in America. People ask me in stunned awe about a healthcare system that doesn’t involve insurance companies, and where the need for treatment isn’t a cause for financial panic for ordinary people who have enough problems making ends meet. But thus far in your election season, the fundamental issue of healthcare reform has been couched in terms which indicate how little will actually change. There is a fundamental lack of imagination on policy born of the fear of actually educating the American public – better to win and do nothing than risk defeat by actually propelling real debates about America’s future.

This political season may be a fun time for “venomous invective” junkies; but it’s a sad time for the millions of Americans who know they have been divorced by the system.

Posted by: Dean Williams on 11/17/07 at 12:41 AM  Respond

I have worked over 30 years to finally get to the point where in December I get a $120 extra a week in my paycheck. I am MIDDLE CLASS. I have 2 kids in college and a big mortgage. Now Obama wants to take that little bone away from us. That's BULLSHIT! How about going after the hedge fund brokers and the people making millions a year that pay no taxes. Obama has lost my vote. Yeah I'm top 6% tell that to my bank account!

Posted by: Sean on 11/17/07 at 3:11 AM  Respond

I'd rather listen to Dennis Kucinich speak for 2 hours.

Posted by: dolkar on 11/17/07 at 9:31 AM  Respond

Welcome CNN: Clinton News Network. It seems so blantantly obvious that this election is being coerced by a media definitely soft on Hillary. She's running on a platform more appropriate for Prom Queen than someone seriously dealing with the current issues of the day. I believe her responses, which cannot be defined as answers, are crafted for the power elite who are looking for a candidate that will do their bidding when in office. It is no longer "we the People" but Corporate Amerika who seem to be running this country. How long will it take Americans to wake up and realize that the dream is over?

Posted by: dadpasadena on 11/17/07 at 9:37 AM  Respond

I thought it was odd that Nevadans were booing Edwards criticism of Hillary taking bribe money from corporate lobbyists.

Now we learn, Hillary supporters were comprised of corporateers from all across the country - NOT ordinary citizens of Nevada.
David, you really should look into this sham.

Posted by: annefrank on 11/17/07 at 11:22 AM  Respond

I'm also much more impressed with Kuicnich. He's just so unpresidential looking BUT it occurred to me there's a way to use his looks and size to advantage--Yoda!! He's Yoda--wise, clear on the issues, green 8~), short but powerful and courageous. My super Republican mother was impressed with him in the last debate. She's fed up with Bush and I see her as a sign of the times!

Posted by: Lynn on 11/17/07 at 12:38 PM  Respond

Why is David Corn so obsessed with Clinton-Obama-Edwards? Dennis Kucinich clearly won the debate, even though he was given only about 30% of the time the "big three" got.
Dennis was the only one who was consistently against the war, against its funding, for universal health care, and for impeaching Dick Cheney.

For a lawyer, I thought Clinton did a terrible job. Blitzer's "lawyer's" question was, "Which takes precedence, security or human rights." Instead of saying that you really can't have one without the other, Clinton said "security," which puts her squarely in the Bush/Cheney camp. Her vote to declare Iran's Republican Guard a "terrorist organization" gives Bush a green light to invade Iran, because the Republican Guard is part of Iraq's army! Someone with her lack of foreign policy expertise should be a wake-up call to us all.

Posted by: Len Carrier on 11/17/07 at 2:03 PM  Respond

"Dennis was the only one who was consistently against the war"

Careful - the Paulites think they have a corner on the "against the war" candidate.

Lest we forget Bill Richardson also want us out of Iraq and he is a foreign policy heavyweight.

Posted by: capt on 11/17/07 at 3:06 PM  Respond

It's ultimately a waste of time hitching your star to Kucinich. He's a Democratic Ross Perot; the angry exception to the rule. He talks the popular line, depicting himself as a small man's Mr. Smith come to Washington. He's fine as a rabble rouser, but that's it. I like what I see with Hillary.

Posted by: Bruce on 11/17/07 at 8:04 PM  Respond

"It's ultimately a waste of time hitching your star to Kucinich."

Thanks but I will support Kucinich through the primaries. I have no illusions the outcome has been decided. The problem is I remember President Gore and President Kerry - they too were a given.

As long as the GOPhers can listen in on political opponents phones and emails it is hard to imagine how they couldn't steal the election.

Posted by: capt on 11/17/07 at 9:03 PM  Respond

Terrible debate. The crowd was stuffed with Hillary supporters. Harry Reid was responsible for distributing tickets to the event, and his son is Hillary's Nevada campaign chair. Its obvious that there needs to be change in this country, but Hillary is NOT it.

I hope there is a big story on the stuffing of the audience, ready to shout down any opposition to Hillary's candidacy.

Posted by: Sulla on 11/17/07 at 11:06 PM  Respond

If I had been as nauseated physically as I was mentally, that "Pearls or Diamonds" question would have triggered a full eruption. I may never watch CNN again. Whoever approved the use of this question should be tarred and feathered.

This election is very likely the most important in our lifetimes. It's our last chance to stop the GOP march toward permanently transforming America in to all the things America has traditionally stood (and fought) against. Yet, years from now, historians may well look back at this question as being the illustrator of how the American public was complicit in the fall of the empire. The mainstream media has lead the dumbing down of American but the American public has bought in to it.

Posted by: Eyesbright on 11/18/07 at 2:18 PM  Respond

Hillary has my vote. She is the only one who promises health care for my friends and their children who live in poverty, like my best friend who currently lives in a 2-bedroom apartment with 14 people, 4 adults and 10 children. My friend just started working a p/t job and as a result has lost her Medicaid and state & federal benefits for herself and her children. She is trying so hard to get out of poverty but is being penalized rather than supported. Explain this to me. All I can do is share my vehicle with her, which is going through used tires at an embarrassing rate and making her frequently late for work and endangering her job. There is nothing more I can do and we are helpless in the face of an administration who doesn't give a s***.

Posted by: Rosie on 11/18/07 at 8:49 PM  Respond

Joe Biden won that debate. Clear, definitive answers; a secure grasp of foreign policy and much needed knowledge of (and respect for) the Constitution.

Unfortunately, the debate, like this entire campaign, is centered soley on a bought and paid for political hack.

Posted by: MichaelS on 11/19/07 at 10:51 AM  Respond

Pseudo-democrats need to quit alibing they're "social" liberals. They're not liberal anything-- The only thing distinguishes them from the f-a-r right mean, stingy, heartless bastards in the companion (not alternate) republican party is they bristle at the word "Jesus" and ridicule all things Christian. I'm no Christian but their mean Ayn Rosenbaum - author of "Atlas Shrugged" and the celebration of greed vs. Jesus' philosophy and way of life --I mean, give! me! a! break!

Maybe we oughta start a "Monsters Club" reserved for victims! unpleasant enough to identify their rapistS!! from among the companion Republican (Clintonian) lineup

In the parade of extinguished life forms inextricably connected to our own, we can ill afford the current Global-Shrug. Trashing the *living! gifts of creation for hyper-indulgence & frivilous consumption isn't simply cruel & uncivilized its uniquely unforgivable. We're stripping our descendants-- those we claim to "value" somewhat above a buck--of a sustainable home on THEIR! Planet, Earth.

The egregious loss of the sacrosanct bound up with us, the tragic loss that assures the end of Earth was the loss of our Respect For Life.


Posted by: SweetEarth on 11/19/07 at 2:41 PM  Respond

BTW--My comment had a title, I forgot.... NAFTA Shrugged!!

Posted by: SweetEarth on 11/19/07 at 2:43 PM  Respond

I'm originally from NV, my mother is an assemblywoman there, the tickets were not just given to Hillary supporters, as my parents are Edwards supporters. I'm personally undecided, but really tired of the attacks. Personally I lived better when Bill was president, so if Hillary is the nominee I will work hard to support her. I was leaning more towards Edwards, but have a really hard time being enthusiastic about a candidate that tears apart someone in his own party to get elected. He was booed because most of the people there where discusted when they tried to tear eachother apart. As a party we are only as strong as our weakest link, the Repugs are going after Hillary, what Edwards and Obama say makes them sound like broken-repug-records. They should be campaigning on why they are better than GW & his Repug goons. Let's not create our own weak links!

Posted by: hachidori on 11/19/07 at 7:14 PM  Respond

Why should Obama play that game? he's running on change as his platform. Well, change includes ending the divisiveness prevalent in our politics for the last decade or three. Obama is TRYING to offer up something new. It's a shame that the media think the only way to win is to rip the other candidate to shreds.

Yes, it was terrible debate...filled with hillary ringers in the audience....and a useless host. But, this isn't going to be another election about who wins by creating the most destruction. Obama will win via hope and new ideas about how to present oneself. He's a gentleman.

Posted by: damianmann on 12/01/07 at 5:17 PM  Respond

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