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Primer: Obama vs. Clinton on the Top 10 Economic Policy Issues

News: The dueling Dems differ in key ways on health care, subprime bailouts, family leave, and social security. Here's how.

February 28, 2008


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On the surface, based on their voting records, the media, and their own admissions, the difference in policy choices between Obama and Clinton may seem small. Mostly, they've been about health care (her plan to make it mandatory, his carrot-and-stick approach) and her vote for the Iraq War. (He wasn't around to vote—though his propensity, like Clinton's, to vote along party lines or not show up at all may say more about what he would have done than any statements to the contrary.)

But there are substantial differences between the two on another issue, one that you might think would have some traction, what with a recession in progress: economics. The distinctions take a rigorous analysis to identify—a look at what they've chosen to emphasize as well as their choice of words and presentation. I took the time to group and compare the top 10 economic policy topics presented in Hillary Clinton's "Solutions for America: Economic Blueprint" and Barack Obama's "Keeping America's Promise: Strengthening the Middle Class."

As a practical matter of readability, Clinton's document is a clear 12-page report, with nonduplicative points and slightly less detail. Obama's is a 48–page thesis in which several key ideas appear multiple times with slightly different descriptions each time. But that's stylistic choice. On the economic substance, Clinton beats Obama 5-to-3 and ties on 2 topics.

1) Housing/Subprime Policy (Edge to Clinton)

The amount of money both candidates suggest using to stave off a complete housing catastrophe is equal, at $30 billion. Clinton suggests a 90-day moratorium for subprime-financed owner-occupied homes, a five-year rate freeze on subprime adjustable rate mortgages, and the creation of a $30 billion fund for state and local groups to stop foreclosures.

Obama posits a $20 billion fund with $10 billion going to state and local groups, and $10 billion directly to families to avoid foreclosure. If implemented well, it sounds like it gives money directly to struggling borrowers, but it's not clear how it would work in practice. He also suggests $10 billion in Mortgage Revenue Bonds to refinance subprime loans, effectively a cross between a government bailout of the lending industry, and a way for Wall Street to earn some trading-fee income.

2) Tax Policy (Slight Edge to Obama with reservations over free-market speak)

A thorough tax plan is lacking in Clinton's plan in terms of detail, and in Obama's, because of repetition through slightly varied explanations. Overall, Clinton suggests a $650 emergency energy assistance to 37 million families at a cost of $24 billion.

Obama suggests $500 in tax relief to workers and families, with an immediate $250 for 150 million individual workers, at a $75 billion cost. Here, his language echoes that of the business focus of President Bush and Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson; he claims this tax relief would "stimulate consumer spending in the most rapid way possible."

But on the innovative side, he suggests a "Making Work Pay" tax cut that would eliminate income tax for 10 million Americans and a Universal Mortgage Credit for Americans who don't itemize taxes, a way of accommodating low-income homeowners.

3) Seniors/Social Security/Retirement Policy (Edge to Obama)

Obama's plans are more detailed than Clinton's. Clinton suggests a government-sponsored 401K savings plan, whereby plan holders would receive $1,000 in matching tax cuts for their first $1,000 invested to encourage savings.

Obama would create automatic workplace pensions to increase savings participation and match 50%, instead of all, of the first $1,000 of savings, for families earning less than $75,000. Though his health care plan is not mandatory, his savings plan is.

He also suggests a $250 "bonus" to be distributed to seniors in their social security checks, eliminating income taxes for seniors making less than $50,000 per year, and increasing the maximum amount of earnings covered by social security from the current $97,500 level. Clinton does not address this specifically in her plan.

4) College Education (Edge to Clinton)

Both plans are similar, beyond a minor difference in the size of tax credit, but Clinton's plan goes beyond Obama's. She suggests a $3,500 tax credit, an increase in Pell Grants, and $500 million for on-the-job training and apprenticeship programs for those who don't go to college, acknowledging the importance of noncollege education. Obama suggests a $4,000 tax credit. Neither plan would go very far to equalize the racial and economic class bias in college and graduate-level education participation.

5) Worker Pay/Sick Benefits (Tie)

Their plans are identical. Both suggest a mandate to give workers seven paid sick days. Both would extend and expand unemployment insurance. Clinton does not specifically address the minimum or living wage in this blueprint, though she introduced legislation at the end of December to raise the minimum wage to $9.50 by 2011. Obama says the minimum wage should increase to that same amount by 2011 and be indexed to inflation. Both candidates are lacking in this department.

6) High Wage/Green Job Growth (Edge to Clinton)

Both candidates have jumped on the green jobs bandwagon with ambitious long-term plans that are difficult to quantify before being set in motion. Both would establish a national broadband strategy and create large national infrastructure reinvestment funds. Both would enhance research and development, she by doubling research budgets, he by making the R&D tax credit permanent.

Clinton would create 5 million new green collar jobs compared to Obama's 2 million, and establish a $50 billion clean energy strategy fund. He would invest $150 billion over 10 years to advance the next generation of bio fuels and renewable energy. The faster the shot in the arm, the better the results, so the edge here is to Clinton.

7) Health Care (Edge to Clinton)

Health care policy has been debated and discussed in great detail. In an economic context, Clinton's American Health Choices Plan provides a mandatory path to universal health care for all, ensures coverage is not denied because of preexisting conditions, and gives small businesses a tax credit for health care coverage. By widening the pool of coverage, it is more likely to be implemented by health insurance companies, create additional competition amongst them, and thereby possibly reduce rates.

Obama says his plan would provide universal health care, though not mandatorily, and reduce family premiums by $2,500 per year (though it's hard to see how he can commit to that number, an average 30% premium reduction). His plan would be available to the self employed, small businesses, and all children, and would also not turn anyone away for preexisting conditions. In place of a New Deal type of government-mandated inclusion, it utilizes a government watchdog, establishing a National Health Insurance Exchange to oversee plan fairness and standards, and increase competition amongst insurers.

8) Corporate Tax Policy (Edge to Obama for addressing tax haven problem)

Both would end tax breaks for companies that ship jobs overseas. Both would force competitive drug prices by allowing Medicare to negotiate with drug companies, repealing the current congressional act abdicating this right, saving $30 billion.

Clinton would scale back benefits and subsidies to big corporations by $55 billion per year, investing that money to help working families, and take tax credits from big oil companies to finance her $50 billion strategic energy fund. Obama's plan would provide $80-$85 billion in tax relief to ordinary Americans by closing corporate loopholes for oil and gas companies and cracking down on international tax havens.

Clinton would end no-bid contracting and cut 500,000 government contractors. Obama would ensure public contracts be awarded to companies committed to American workers.

9) Credit/Lending Policy (Tie. Points to Clinton for rate caps and suggesting real housing-oriented regulation. Points to Obama for reforming 2005 Bankruptcy Bill.)

Both say they will get tough on abuse. Clinton would create a Fair Credit for Families Agenda to combat abusive credit card practices, impose a 30% cap on interest rates, and work to lower the cap. Obama would create a Stop Fraud Act to combat abusive lending practices, but doesn't get specific on rate caps, beyond capping payday loan rates at 36%.

Clinton would establish a regulatory framework to crack down on mortgage lenders to prevent future housing crises, but doesn't go into specifics. Obama would create a Homeowner Obligation Made Explicit (HOME) score to provide borrowers a metric to compare risk of various mortgage products, and mandate accurate loan disclosure.

Clinton's plan does not discuss the 2005 Bankruptcy Act, whereas Obama would amend it to help ordinary families renegotiate loan terms for homes in bankruptcy, as well as reform the law so that if the reason for filing was medical expenses, people should be relieved of that debt. He would alter corporate bankruptcy laws to protect pensions by putting them higher on the list of debt companies can't shed if they go bankrupt.

10) Family-Oriented Policy (Slight edge to Clinton for grant vs. refund suggestions)

Both would expand the Family and Medical Leave Act (FMLA) to cover employers with 25 workers, instead of the current 50 employees. Clinton would commit $1 billion per year to a Family Leave Innovation Fund to support state-level parental-leave programs and expand at-home family care through individual and business tax credits. Obama would expand the Child and Dependent Care Tax Credit, making it refundable and allowing low-income families up to 50% credit for child care, instead of the current 35%.

Correction appended: The original version of this article incorrectly stated that Paul Wellstone was the only senator to vote against the Iraq war. We regret the error.



 

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Clinton has met with more than 80 leaders in other countries and is well respected abroad. Obama has met with leaders in Kenya, and people abroad are mystified by his 'cult' following. Edge to Clinton
Clinton has worked for 35 years for civil rights and been so supportive of trying to help blacks. Obama has a seventeen year relationship with a slum landlord named Rezko who has been a huge contributor to Obama but whose practices have directly hurt blacks through his slum landlord tactics. Edge to Clinton. The edge to Clinton list is very long as she is the most highly qualified person to run for this office in many years.
Posted by:Sharon AshFebruary 29, 2008 5:47:32 AMRespond ^
An independent review stated Clintons plan would cost $140 billion and insure everyone, Obama's would be $110 billion and cover half of the uninsured. Obama's optional plans have also been critized for being unrealistic, if it's optional few will jump in. -Staff, Healthcare Reviews http://www.healthcarereviews.com
Posted by:P.FezziwigFebruary 29, 2008 6:17:24 AMRespond ^
Sharon Ash's comments are not balanced, her argument is not valid (who she is supporting aside). Please try again. You sound like a mindless supporter- give your candidate more respect and credit.

P.Fezziwig, that review you sited comes from people mostly advocating universal single payer health insurance, and knocking BOTH Clinton and Obama's plans. Further, the big difference between the two candidates plans is the mandatory element, which I for one would opt out of if I could because I can't afford insurance anyway. (thanks for the link though, I didn't know that Clinton, Obama and Edwards were all basing there plans and actions on Schwarzenegger's universal health care plan!)

It is hard to find articles like Nomi Prins's, ones that go into detail of the campaigns and their differences (of course, remember the tradition is to swing rightward after the convention). I find it hard to find SIGNIFICANT differences in policy between the two. I do like the references here towards addressing the 2005 Bankruptcy Act.

Both candidates, at least in this article, seem to trade between tax breaks and direct handouts, both of which can be corrupted, and I'm still not sure where the money will come from if we don't end the occupation of Iraq and scale down our military budget. Both do talk about taking on tax loop holes and havens, bringing in some money. I do not know the real figures from rescinding Bush's tax cuts. But I would give a SLIGHT edge to Obama for more handouts to myself- my tax bracket is very low, I'd prefer checks thank you very much.

Now here's the test. Can you get your candidate, or ANY candidate, to talk about other real important issues like:
-Universal Single Payer Health Insurance?
-Ending NAFTA? Ending GATT?
-Addressing the Iraqi Oil Law?
-Raising CAFE standards?
-Carbon taxes?
-ending nuclear power?
-along with a whole host of problems at FEMA and the EPA that affect our daily lives?
-Reducing our DoD and DHS budgets?
-De-privatizing our national infrastructure, government and armies?
-Withdraw of non-combat troops (real withdraw)?
-Ending the War on Drugs?
-Lobbyists and Campaign reform?
-A National Election System?
-Net Neutrality?
-Addressing the Telecommunications Act?
-Balanced Budgets?
-signing statements?
Posted by:dustinchicagoFebruary 29, 2008 9:58:29 AMRespond ^
the biggest difference I have found so far between these two campaigns is not policy, but donors.

Clinton seems to rely slightly more on established DLC people while Obama seems to go with slightly more local movements. Clinton reminds me of, well, Bill Clinton in this regard and Obama reminds me of Howard Dean.
Posted by:dustinchicagoFebruary 29, 2008 10:04:14 AMRespond ^
I never see this mentioned in discussions of Obama's health care plan: Reducing Costs of Catastrophic Illnesses for Employers and Their Employees: Catastrophic health expenditures account for a high percentage of medical expenses for private insurers. The Obama plan would reimburse employer health plans for a portion of the catastrophic costs they incur above a threshold if they guarantee such savings are used to reduce the cost of workers' premiums. I think this is a distinction between the two proposals.
Posted by:FdcgjcFebruary 29, 2008 12:42:45 PMRespond ^
alittle to late to show people that hillary is alittle better on bread and butter issues,repuks and independs crossed party lines ro make sure obama was the dems man in the general,they'll cross back in the general and low and behold MICHEAL MOORE was right,WATCH THE DEMS MESS IT UP, MCCAIN wins in 2008
Posted by:lee swintonFebruary 29, 2008 1:30:38 PMRespond ^
To Lee Swinton: The right wing interests (i.e. Republicans) own much of the media. Hillary has been blackballed by the media from day one because there was no Republican who could have stopped her. The Democrats, through Obama, are in the process of stopping themselves. This is what you get when you rely on 30 second sound bites for your information or a 'feel good' speech about change.
Posted by:Sharon AshFebruary 29, 2008 2:04:59 PMRespond ^
The critical issue is what's called "trade." It's not; it's "transfer of the factors of production": labor & capital to other countries, primarily China & India. This is devastating the US economy by offshoring good-paying manufacturing and information technology jobs, undermining US purchasing power.

Nationally, since Mar98 the US has lost 3.7M manufacturing jobs, that's -21.1% . Information technology jobs are down 648K since Mar01, that's - 17.4%.

This isn't about "protectionism", it's about ending "reverse protectionism". Google: "How the U.S. Subsidizes Offshoring of Jobs".

The US economy will soon collapse because of the exponentially-increasing trade deficit, with fiscal debt, the housing market collapse, the mortgage crisis, financial crisis piling on.

All this gets way too little attention from either candidate or the media. In fact, both are DLC Democrats and the DLC loves "free trade."
Posted by:Bob PowellFebruary 29, 2008 2:12:50 PMRespond ^
Hallelujah and praise Jesus says this atheist. Mother Jones finally rediscovered the fact that there are TWO, count 'em, TWO democrats in this contest! Finally a neutral article in which Hillary in not belittled or demonized, and Sen. Obama is not treated with kid gloves.
Posted by:Stacey A. WardFebruary 29, 2008 2:17:24 PMRespond ^
Neither candidate offers fully progressive proposals (e.g. single payer for health care), but if one believes that both offer proposals that are better than the status quo or than McCain's, the decisive issues seem to me to be: 1) Who is more likely to beat McCain; and 2)Who is more likely to get their proposals passed if they become President. It doesn't matter which proposal is marginally better if that candidate won't win or can't get their policy implemented as President. Given that the differences in policy are small (and subject to debate as to which one is actually better depending which progressive analysis you read), and given where we are, there is something to be said for rallying around Obama and uniting to be sure McCain does not win, rather than squandering good will and resources arguing fine-points of policy differences and ending up with a floor fight at the Convention.
Posted by:Tabitha GFebruary 29, 2008 2:28:57 PMRespond ^
I'm sorry ,I really hate to play the race card, but here gos If obamma wasn't black, and did't vote against the war, whats left?
Posted by:kellyFebruary 29, 2008 2:39:08 PMRespond ^
Stacey Ward you are right on! If the national media would take the bias out of their reporting the race for the democratic nominee would have been over some time ago.
Posted by:Becky B.February 29, 2008 2:40:54 PMRespond ^
All of this means nothing, when they get into office and find out that we will not be able to leave Iraq, where is all this money coming from? I think that both of them should say we will try to end the war! Neither Barack or Hillary actually knows what is going on in the White House. Bush and his cronies have been very secretive to Congress and the Senate. No one was accountable to anyone. The United States is bankrupt just like the people. But we shall see!
Posted by:MSOFebruary 29, 2008 2:40:57 PMRespond ^
According to my recollection, Senator Robert Byrd of West Virginia joined Paul Wellstone in voting against the Iraq War. Byrd certainly gave good speeches, explaining very clearly why the war would be a disaster.
Posted by:Joel HubermanFebruary 29, 2008 2:51:11 PMRespond ^
Sharon Ash, DustinChicago noticed right off the bat that your comments are not balanced. What a coincidence.
You might try for objectivity, so no one else will think poorly of your critical thinking skills.
Obama has a website that summarizes his policies.
He wrote two autobiographical works. They won Emmys. There is also a biography called "Obama" by a journalist named Mendell.
One of the most appealing things about Obama is that he is not only more traveled than your posts suggest, he has lived in cultures other than our own.
Posted by:marymomgretFebruary 29, 2008 3:06:30 PMRespond ^
Wow. I like Obama, but I must admit that Clinton is better on many policy issues. She just hasn't demonstrated that clearly to the voters. Also, if she had been somehow more authentic, more heartfelt, then I think she'd be the frontrunner. She comes off to many people as dry and impersonal, while Obama tends to deliver well in that department. Hillary Clinton does have the most experience, the most policy depth, but somehow she has not closed the deal with voters and I think it boils down to presentation and personality. I think she has what it takes to deliver on presentation and personality, but somehow she has not found her rhythm. Alas, perhaps Obama's uplifting approach will be best for the country and the world... Let's hope so if he does win the nomination and the general election.

God, thy will be done.
Posted by:WilliamFebruary 29, 2008 3:15:36 PMRespond ^
Prins' opening opening paragraph contains a factual error ("...[Obama] wasn't around to vote—though his propensity, like Clinton's, to vote along party lines or not show up at all may say more about what he would have done than any statements to the contrary; it's hard to imagine that he would have been the sole senator voting against the war besides the late Paul Wellstone.")

'Sole Senator' to vote against the Iraq War Resolution? Which roll call vote is this referring to?

In the "joint resolution to authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq" vote(http://www.senate.gov/leg islative/LIS/roll_call_lists/r oll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&session=2&vote=00237) of October 11, 2002, 23 Senators (22 Democrats) voted against it. One of them was indeed Wellstone, but there were plenty of others.

As a mere citizen without access to secret intelligence sources, I was able to discern that the rush to war was totally bogus just by flipping past page A1 of any reputable newspaper. Any Congressperson with a conscience who wasn't worried about a "quick win" in Iraq that would hang over their heads in the next election would have voted against. Hillary (and Kerry) should have known better in 2002...as many of their colleagues then recognized.
Posted by:JudFebruary 29, 2008 3:16:24 PMRespond ^
Clinton is fail.
Posted by:JohnFebruary 29, 2008 3:23:29 PMRespond ^
Both of them had better figure out how to end the occupation of Iraq quickly so that they'll be able to pay for all these plans.
Posted by:Len CarrierFebruary 29, 2008 4:33:31 PMRespond ^
I think this article would do a better job if Ms. Prins actually went in to HOW the plans would work, rather than just racking up each points. Something like a plan to "fix" the economy can easily be filled with things that sound good but don't actually work in the real world--does Ms. Prins know the difference? I found a good blog post that has some more thoughtful critiques of Hillary's plan. http://jaydiatribe.blogspot.com/2008/02/hillary-ous-economics.html


Posted by:shannon murphyFebruary 29, 2008 4:46:01 PMRespond ^
Why won't Hillary & Bill reveal their tax returns & Clinton Foundation donors NOW? To judge her electability in general election now we must see this information now. No point in comparing programs if she can't get elected.
Posted by:Dick WuylieFebruary 29, 2008 4:56:03 PMRespond ^
the most important aspect of Obama's economic plan is completely missing and it has potentially that largest impact on income inequality and the subprime crisis. That's his plan to shut down offshore taxhavens and crack down on executive compensation schemes that encourage stock price manipulation as opposed to invesments in the real economy like expanding business and creating jobs. Offshore special purpose entities are also at the heart of the subprime crisis: for every dollar in a bad mortgage there are $1000 bad CDOs and other derivative contracts pending which according to Warren Buffet are "weapons of mass destruction". The OTC derivatives market is 586 trillion dollars large, CDSs are 45 trillion and CDOs are a subclass of these , at about 10 trillion.
Posted by:Sam FisherFebruary 29, 2008 7:43:38 PMRespond ^
Tabitha G - thank you, that's exactly what I've been thinking. Unfortunately for her, a lot of people hate Senator Clinton with a illogical passion and that will make it more difficult to win the general election and to get Republican legislators to consider her proposals. Obama can bring voters and our government together, so let's stop this infighting and get behind him.
Posted by:CarrieMarch 1, 2008 2:21:54 AMRespond ^
The idea of fixing the economy by sending 100 million people to the mall is short-sighted and perpetuates the disease. (it is the road to Japan-style economics, where consumption already hit the limit.. it is considered a "problem" stagnant economy where everybody is fed, educated, housed, "electronics-clad and can't buy anymore then what they already do...how many countries actually WANT that problem!!).
What happened to the ideal of building a better world, baby-boomers?? What is wrong with working?? How about using government money to employ people to clean up the mess we've done so far:working with communitites to address specific local issue, like turning existing buildings greener, implementing small wind farms to generate electricity for suburban or country communities, fixing the railroad system, creating public transportation options outside the big cities, building bike lanes, building small electricity plants to recycle cooking oil and other garbage (several successful experiences around the world ), employing all the willing and able to fish garbage out of our rivers - and use it to feed energy plants!!
Imagine using all the power and wealth of this country to model to the world an environmental revolution that would only really cost WILL and WORK. Imagine living on a country where sustainability comes from around the corner, generated by a community effort supported by the government. Get the picture? US was an example to the world, now it is a power to fear and in several cases, loath. Let's get back on our feet - working for the community may sound unappealing but it is a lot more satisfying then working with the goal of shopping. SHOPPING IS ADDICTIVE and like all addictions, hazardous to your health.
Posted by:maria ferrucciMarch 1, 2008 3:51:33 AMRespond ^
Interesting.

I also find it interesting that the one candidate who scared Republicans AND the lobbyists, Edwards, received basically no media attention.

Now we're down to Clinton & Obama. The Republicans, who now own most of the media in this country and have dumbed down public education to the point where most people actually believe what they see and read, are salivating at the prospect of Obama as the candidate.

I can only imagine what Muslim garbage Fox News will spout off about him and all the sheeple "Christians" will jump on it.
Posted by:PamelaMarch 1, 2008 4:24:59 AMRespond ^
This is true - unfortuantely....just go to http://mediamatters.org/ to read about how bad it is and has been with the media in this country.

Our most qualified candidate was and is Hillary - due to her experience, knowledge of how to and courage to.... implement all of her plans....from day one, she is the only candidate the Rep Party was worried about taking on.....and for just this reason - she is the most qualified....it is unfortunate that she did not 'connect' with the voters, as Obama has. If he wins and becomes the nom we must rally behind him to be sure of a new perspective in the White House - just based on the very general principal alone - that it has been unhealthy for this country to have been led by this same Rep Admin for this long....both domestically and globally!! and under this title would be the long, long list of all the ways this country has NOT prospered under this regime and in most areas declined!.... Whichever candidate goes in there - will truly have their hands full....we are fortunate to have 2 good candidates who were willing to "clean-up after another Bush" (as Hillary stated). I don't see the possiblity of a 'dream-team' of these two top contendors, but I sure wish they would re-visit the idea next week! They would be unstoppable ;o)
Posted by:Lulu13March 1, 2008 5:29:27 AMRespond ^
Well, if we've learned one thing from all this, it's that the media (and perhaps America) is more afraid of looking racist than they are of looking sexist. We've learned a man disputes his opponents opinions while a woman "whines" about them. And this from a man who because of his lack of experience (see "Barack Obama and Me" www.houstonpress.com/2008-02-28/news/barack-obama-screamed-at-me) gains fame and respect for knowing the power of words. I was at a place where I would support whomever won the primary process, but now Mr. Obama's passive/aggressive tactics are turning my stomach!
Posted by:Rhonda DiengMarch 1, 2008 5:42:08 AMRespond ^
Ah, Hillary, Hillary. Too bad our country is so hung up on style at the expense of substance. We fawn over "stars" and complain that teachers are being paid too much. If Obama pulls this off, I hope his star power dazzles Congress long enough to achieve a better future for our nation. (Not just for the most comfortable 10 percent of our nation.) And I hope everyone who has worked so hard on this campaign remains engaged to let Congress know we are serious about change.
Posted by:AugieMarch 1, 2008 5:52:05 AMRespond ^
Clinton gave us Alan Greenspan who killed the Internet economy and gave us this one.We wwwouldn't be where we are without Alan.Clinton...not forgiven.
Posted by:Bill from HobokenMarch 1, 2008 6:47:59 AMRespond ^
so BASICALLY, BOTH candidate PLATFORMS SUCK.

*** I perpetually wonder, "who told North Americans that the Human Rights Revolution was OVER?" ***

when did people decide THAT sitting & ACCEPTING whatever the candidates offered... WAS THE WAY TO DEMOCRATICALLY NEGOTIATE YOUR COUNTRY'S FUTURE...

from the 'options' offered TO YOU by BIG MONEY??

IF North Americans are too BLOODY STUPID to *take Nader's platform & WALK IT TO THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY representatives & DEMAND POPULIST PLATFORM CHANGES...*

then they're TOO PASSIVE to DESERVE DEMOCRACY.

that's DEMOCRACY.


===
WASHINGTON V. CUBA AFTER CASTRO
Written by Stephen Lendman, Monday, 25 February 2008
http://sjlendman.blogspot.com/2008/ 02/washington-v-cuba-after-castro.html

In Cuba's case, it defeated a US invasion, a 49 year economic embargo, over 600 attempts to kill Castro, repeated US state terrorism to destabilize the country, & relentless efforts to isolate the island politically & economically.
...
"Castro aimed at George Bush as well & stated: "Annexation, annexation, annexation! the adversary responds. That's what he thinks, deep inside, when he talks about change."
...
Cuban & US elections have marked similarities & differences. Cuba is a one party state. So is America the way Gore Vidal describes it: "the Property or Monied Party with two wings." There's not a dimes worth of difference between them that matters so Americans have no choice. That's not how things are in Cuba, & here's the difference."
===

& people wonder why North Americans have ERODING FREEDOMS? come on, you've got American MONEY owning BOTH PARTIES & MEDIA... & you wonder WHY Nader's candidacy is butchered in the Public's Eyes?

maybe, you should consider that Nader doesn't DESIRE a presidency... he's just keeping the ISSUES in YOUR FACE so you can think about WHAT THEY WON'T OFFER you from the NEGOTIATING TABLE.

Nader is the best opportunity for reform YOU'LL NEVER BE ALLOWED TO HAVE.
so why not take INITIATIVE & start NEGOTIATING YOUR CANDIDATE'S PLATFORMS before you GIVE THEM THE JOB.

*** ...because the *corporations* are already AT the Negotiating Table ***


http://www.airamerica.com/thomhartmannpage/node/217#comment-5300


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Posted by:BlueBerry Pick'nMarch 1, 2008 8:31:19 AMRespond ^
When Clinton or Obama win the nomination, who will hold her/his feet to the fire on these issues? Not John McCain. Answer:Ralph Nader. That's his job. votenader.org/issues
Posted by:steve connMarch 1, 2008 8:42:17 AMRespond ^
Thanks for this helpful, thorough, and fair comparative assessment. What it doesn't tell us--nobody and nothing can--is which candidate is more likely to unite the country behind these and other desirable policies. (For what it's worth, I voted for Obama but not without mental reservations.)
Posted by:John BernardMarch 1, 2008 10:33:09 AMRespond ^
dustinchicago should run.
Posted by:Linda in PhillyMarch 1, 2008 11:39:00 AMRespond ^
hillary, obama, mccain - three sides of the same coin. wha? well, abstraction's the only way to illustrate how dozens of millions of people can pretend that there are significant differences between the republicans and democrats. obama's already showing his ass, just another politician. so much for change. hillary was bought by the health care lobby over a decade ago. and no need to say anything about Our Friend. Nader's running. let's get him into a debate. Nader '08. www.nader.org
Posted by:mike pMarch 1, 2008 2:22:15 PMRespond ^
William F. Buckley died this week; thinking we should lower our eyes, doff your caps; a deserved moment of pause.

Three decades plus of sheer clarity, generous learning offered, as well entertainment; the man was a character.
He has been described copiously; none more perfectly: “…a man with milky manner with a skewering intellect…”

Thinking President 2008; not a great last hour memory for Bill Buckley. He must have been agonizing over the surviving Troika; wondering:
 Where have all the thinkers gone; pedigree men & women with tight- reasoning, and the verbal and intellectual skills to lead and educate others; to actually to USE their No. 1600 bully pulpit.
 Where are the men & women, those shaped – profoundly – from their life’s beginnings; ready on day one with the balance needed to ‘LEAD’: correct temperament, often-neglected attribute by the electorate; intuition, but then, one tempered, the best inklings needing to find a certain equilibrium gained ONLY by relevant time at hard- work and hard- lesson experience.
 Why, given our sheer size and complexity, are such pedestrian candidates the pickings for the highest office in the land; the globe.

Thinking perhaps, because the dearth -- is -- due to the pickings … slim pickings.

The next resident at No. 1600 will need to defeat Scylla -- and -- Charybdis.

We are today, caught between Scylla et Charybdis on so many levels:
 East v. West; those differences brewing for centuries; the last seven years only the beginnings; the enemy: hate and revenge
 Core v. GAP; if you have not read Thomas P. M. Barnett; ‘The Pentagon’s New Map and ‘Blueprint For Action’ … you are missing a large piece of today’s truth, Barnett, a remarkable “thinker”.
 Dollar v. EURO; for the FED –- whatever that is – a gauntlet past Scylla et Charybdis … and then some; we cut, the dollar loses; we do not cut, the real-estate end of the economy loses.
 Oil v. No Oil … our pathetic addiction to the stuff laying about on the globe’s surface has wasted forty years of [learning] how to go deep for the [really] easy stuff.
 IRONY: the very isolation imposed in the Soviets, forced Russia to remain at home, to learn to dig deep for Black-Gold in her Tundra. All the while, we continue to use a vacuum in the sands of the ‘East’; while the Russians are becoming – are - the Gas-Oil Barons of the day. We still think oil comes from dinosaur droppings.
 Educated v. Not educated; our K-12 institutions are bankrupt; our teaching ‘profession’ usurped by bureaucrats and unions; excellence the perfect criterion, trumped.
 DRAFT v. NO DRAFT [aka Serve v. NOT Serve]; One percent of America is experiencing the heartbreak of the War in IRAQ and Afghanistan; and even then, some worse than others; the ‘Breakfast-Feast”; pigs and chickens give to the feast amply, generously so; but, not equally.
o NB: If we are to recover a NATIONAL pride and involvement, every – every --- man and women should ‘serve’ for three-five years. Name it: in or out of uniform; the list of service jobs is un-limited. How about an NROTC tuition plan look alike; TROTC [TeachersReserveOfficerTrainingCorps]; four years of [quality] institution education in exchange for five years of inner city/ rural/ any troubled public – PUBLIC – school in AMERICA. Tommy Jefferson would be proud, if just ONE candidate had the circles to speak of such.

NOTE: As a conservative, am I allowed to invoke Jefferson!

In places, we cannot hear, the Republican heads are whispering, asking themselves; what the [] have we done.
Circa Christmas ’09, the entire country will be – shouting -- the same question.

Cynically speaking…
JNDF Rand
OUT

Posted by:J. Nelson F-RandMarch 1, 2008 2:44:41 PMRespond ^
Ckinton has taken $3,000,000 in vacation and private jet travel on InfoUSA's private plane. She says it meets the "ethics" standards they create for themselves, but IS IT ETHICAL? NO! Bill Clinton was owned in Arkansas by Tyson Chicken and others. Bill Clinton allowed the press to consolidate, and now the 5 megacorporations don't feel like reporting the news. We are sick and tired of the same old politics, and we are ready for CHANGE! Clinton would mobilize the rightwingnuts and probably lose (they can't stand the Clintons). They really don't like McCain either, so we would hope they would stay home if Obama were McCain's opponent. He can win, Hillary can NOT.

One more problem with Hillary...her constituents have begged her to finish the 9-11 investigations. To date, NIST has not completed their "investigation" of World Trade Building 7 (the THIRD huge building to collapse at freefall speed on the afternoon of 9-11). NISTS did NOT INCLUDE analysis to the collapse of both towers in their "completed investigation" for those buildings. Their work scope included ONLY time from plane impact until the instant of collapse initiation. Why don't YOU know these facts? Because the corporate-owned press won't touch these facts. They put profits above Country EVERY TIME. Please educate yourselves. You can start at an excellent Architect/Engineer page (www.ae911truth.org). You have a duty and an obligation to KNOW the FACTS.
Posted by:SheilaMarch 1, 2008 10:14:28 PMRespond ^
This article sent me to the websites of both campaigns to view the material for myself. I found Obama's economic plan to be openly available and easy to download. Still searching for the "Solutions for America" offered by Clinton. I have no basis for comparison, but I did find Obama's plan to be clear and easy to understand.
Likewise I feel that you fail to mention Obama's stimulus measures for broadband and internet technologies, which was missing from what I could find of Clinton's plan.
I'm not sure what your criteria is here for giving the "edge" to one candidate or another, but I think Obama is stronger on the economy. He is also consistently more transparent, accessible and upfront about his beliefs and his stands on all of the issues. As far as I'm concerned, "edge" to Obama.
Posted by:CatSMarch 2, 2008 8:58:58 AMRespond ^
I'd like to see something exactly like this comparing McCain to Obama and McCain to Clinton.
Posted by:JESMarch 2, 2008 12:20:12 PMRespond ^
"hillary, obama, mccain - three sides of the same coin.....Nader's running"

Well, let's pause to review some of Nader's most memorable contributions....
Seatbelts
Air Bags
Safe Drinking Water Act
Occupational Safety
E.P.A...............

AND
GW (little Bush) - Florida, 2000


Posted by:Lulu13March 3, 2008 3:58:57 AMRespond ^
I think this article is good as far as it goes! You have to look beyond just what a canidate 'says' to really understand what they 'might' do! Can I recommend reading in The Nation Feb. 11th issue, 'Subprime Obama' by Fraser! One phrase from article: "centrist politics of his three cheif economic advisers and his campaigns ties to Wall Street" I looked up all three, and one is a critic of "Sicko", another feels high healthcare costs are good, for Wall St., and the third Liebman, wants to Privatize Social Security, and cut benefits thru accounting 'tricks', by 45%!!
I think this author is being Very Kind to Obama, and should look a little deeper!
PS: I'm going Green, without Edwards in the race there is No Progressive candidate to represent me or my issues left!
Posted by:AndieMarch 3, 2008 8:45:54 AMRespond ^
CAMPAIGN PROMISES are NOT FACT. I'd like to point out that all this "analysis" over campaign promises of these two candidates is not the same as analysis over their past actions and attitudes. I think voters basing their entire choice on campaign promises is wishful thinking. When was the last time a president took office and fulfilled all the promises made in the run for office? What is more likely to happen, once elected, is that these candidates will give us more of what they have in the past. For Clinton, that means triangulation and compromise with the insane neocons. For Obama, I see that as working for a sane alternative.
Posted by:ruscleMarch 3, 2008 10:57:01 AMRespond ^
To Ruscle: Obama wants to do more then triangulate, he wants to work with them!
Haven't you been listening? He's going to invite them "IN" to participate in making the decisions, Ya Know, just like Bush and the Repugs. have for the last 7 years!! It's worked really well, for the Dems. since they got the majority hasn't it??
Posted by:AndieMarch 3, 2008 11:19:19 AMRespond ^
What bothers me about both these candidates is that neither of them advocates peace equals disarmament, and that the true path to liberation is to re-tool the industrial revolution to the non-pollution solution, wind, tidal, and solar power which transforms to electricity and is more power than can be used by society. No more blackouts. With the air, land, and water under assault by pollution from the burning of fossil fuels they still need to recognize that the present society is at war with itself, and is its own worst enemy. Pollution is the worst and deepest war yet on the planet for it portends death to all living things, and had either one of these candidates took the time to read the workers unions safety-committees and the socialist alternative they would have seen that the pollution from the inception of the industrial revolution was and is, the cause of premature death and disease to the workers and it was only the bosses society that gained from profits of pollution as they never were down in the mines so to speak. Now that green power and its hi-tech tools are mostly available globally, Bushco and the dem politicians would do well to recognize the mission of waring for oil throughout the Holyland is wrong, and instead the need is to work to make a non-pollution solution. Green power is a path to true liberation, not endless wars for more pollution.
Posted by:tomMarch 3, 2008 11:43:30 AMRespond ^
I wanted to thank mother Jones for providing a space. Her answer to the ecological crisis was then and now a workers' state that will put an end to pollution, poverty, gender discrimination and bring with it liberation from all that previous societies made wrong. Mother Jones was and is a world wide leader for imporved living and working conditions. One of the truly great American peoples who only needs upgrading to bring her written works and spirt forward towards the new society that we all yearn for on planet earth.
Posted by:tomMarch 3, 2008 11:54:35 AMRespond ^
ignorant^
Posted by:KyleMarch 4, 2008 6:38:15 AMRespond ^
Naderites and other radicals, have you not yet learned that the differences between Democrats and Republicans do matter? And no more so than to those at the bottom of the hierarchy? Your ideals are worse than useless if their practical effect is to annoint McCain.
Posted by:HarvMarch 4, 2008 1:21:56 PMRespond ^
So, to me it shows Hillary more knowledgeable. So, what is the problem. She has tears in her (it shows me she has feelings). I like human qualities. If her tearing up is an issue, then why is Obama's egoness an issue. Sexism is still alive in horrible in the USA.
Posted by:star555March 4, 2008 9:39:55 PMRespond ^
Duh! Who are you voting for?
Posted by:star555March 4, 2008 9:50:26 PMRespond ^
We did vote (NY) for Hillary here in this family, friends neighbors....and for those reasons - she is human (feeling) when necessary, tough when necessary (needs to be), assertive (very appropriate), but most of all very intelligent and seasoned to hit the ground running on Day One (VERY important)....We will rally behind Obama (of course) if he wins (now this morning there may be a 2 person race again), but for Nader (truly an egotist) to enter the race will only assure a draw of votes from the real candidate (namely the Dem) - so if that happens once again (revisit 2000) those who have voted for a candidate who can't conceivably win - have no excuse or room to complain.....mathematically he cannot win and only serves his own interest (ego) to even try....
Posted by:Lulu13March 5, 2008 3:47:09 AMRespond ^
Seriously, I had to laugh at myself and well most of you this morning. Upon surveying Project Vote Smart's records on how both Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Obama voted over the last several years on the same pieces of legislation, I realized that THEY VOTED EXACTLY THE SAME WAY! So, the truth is that I will not be voting for Mr. Obama. He talks of change but his voting record proves to me that he is full of hot air when the decision hits the table. Who has more years of experience in doing business as usual? Mrs. Clinton. Mr. Obama, my advice to you is to sit this one out, start voting differently if you truly want to be a source of change, and then run in 2012 with a record that backs your words. I am quite disillusioned. We need a decent small government socialist-leaning political party with a moderate to conservative solid-yet-unintrusive social agenda.
Posted by:Mark from PennsylvaniaMarch 5, 2008 4:40:23 AMRespond ^
Thank you, Linda. I am running (in 2012). No I don't expect much, or even that many people to listen to me. I do think that going through the process would be exciting and educational. I only hope that I can present what I learn to others- that I can interpret the process to make it a little less daunting for others who would be interested in running for President, or any other office. Also, the experience would help me in future campaigns for a more attainable local office.

I am currently drafting some websites to help explain and foster campaigns. What we need are more sites that consolidate all the information you would need to run, and get that information to all independents, third parties, and even 'mavericks' within the two major parties. Imagine a national map that you could 'drill-down' to as local a level as possible, like a PTA or Neighborhood Association officer, and have available all the forms, rules and useful contacts that you would need. I would include all 'voting block' contacts as well- like unions, NGOs and social websites etc. This is something the "Conservative Revolution" did very well- a concerted advance on every possible office and public position available in the country. This goal was grown out of my goal of bringing nonprofit development and management resources and theories to the vast world of NGOs. As a nonprofit consultant I found that there are many truly gifted and dedicated people in these areas, but they sometimes do not have the time or resources, or even awareness, to find out what everyone else is doing or to communicate with them.

There is an overall problem I am trying to solve, and that is to not create just another 'umbrella' type of information resource- you can find countless links on various websites, but that is just repackaging and not as helpful as you might think given the quantity. What is needed is more of an interactive and naturally growing and reinforcing tool (I have a background in database management). Some useful things would be something like a national progressive action calendar that any group or person can add too- from farmer's markets to senatorial campaigns. Now there are a vast multitude of networking sites, consultant sites, progressive news sites, and the websites of the NGOs and other groups themselves; there is a vast sea of information out there. One of the keys would be to offer a useful tool to each of them, and in doing so, increase everyone's awareness of all the good things that are going on. Also, umbrella sites are extremely time consuming to maintain. Even self publishing sites like Wikipedia and Craigslist are monsters of information. It will not be an easy task, and it will not be one I can do alone.

My main message would be a simple one. We must truly realize and honor our own personal power.

I want anyone and everyone to participate in their own lives and politics. I want to help all those making a connection between the large national and world issues and an individual's local actions. No an individual cannot solve our problems for us, and we as individuals are mere drops in the bucket of social movement (no matter which direction). But the collective- the People- are the energy that enables the Ruling Class.

I recently came across the phrase "trickle down politics" which I think gets to the heart of a constantly overlooked problem. I see many people being caught up in the Democratic Primaries- and this is a good thing because the more you participate the more you allow others to recognize your own power. I can oversimplify by drawing comparisons between Clintons seemingly top-down campaign versus Obama's seemingly bubble-up one. To be fair, Clinton does have a very impressive organization that involves a great number of local, 'grassroots-style' party participation, and Obama does have many seasoned "Election, Inc." political consultants and Party insiders. My own limited impression so far though is still that Obama has more 'common' citizens involved in his campaign, which may affect how he would govern, who he might believe he owes allegiance to (I actually give the most credit to Howard Dean and his 50 State Strategy). That type of locally driven movement to allow and encourage individuals to participate will alone give me hope. But a crucial element always seems to be missing from any analysis. The true power we see is from mass participation, not from the promise of some new 'messiah'. We have been conditioned to place our power, our hopes and fears, into an individual instead of movements. I constantly hear people talking of who they are going to vote against, rather than what values and goals they will vote for. That is not good in your personal life, and it is not good for you in national politics either. Imagine determining who you will marry not on any sort of integrity criteria or whether they match your values but rather how they look to others or if they share your interests (but not your values). Would any of your friends say that is a good choice? Not to say that you have to "love" your candidate, only that if you honor yourself by determining and sticking with your values, the process of choosing a candidate or party becomes easier because it is based on your personal truths and not on anything superficial. Identity Politics preys on those who have no developed political identity of their own.

So the strategy would be:
Develop tools for everyone to maximize their participation in anything that is involved in their own life
Develop tools for all participants to effectively communicate with each other
Communicate the connection between large scale issues and personal, local actions
Demonstrate and reinforce the 'power of the collective' in the public mind

I have faith in the People. I know that we need no Princes or Priest. The most important thing to everyone is their own life and mind, including the welfare of their friends and family. I have faith that when a vast number of individuals develop their own power, with integrity, and within their own circle, that our rational for supporting distant leadership will fade and we will have started on the path to true freedom.
Posted by:dustinchicagoMarch 5, 2008 9:05:22 AMRespond ^
Kelly - you ask what's left with Obama? Other than the fact that he's passed on lucrative career opportunities in order to serve in public office and has been able to start (from scratch) and run a very effective multi-million dollar campaign organization? You obviously have access to the internet, so why not do some research? You can find more info on resolutions that he has sponsored on http://thomas.loc.gov/. Happy Hunting!
Posted by:MicheleMarch 5, 2008 12:08:24 PMRespond ^
According to the Wall Street Journal, Business will have a seat at the table with Obama (as it must). It just won't be able to buy all of the chairs.
Posted by:AndieMarch 5, 2008 1:09:12 PMRespond ^
Sharon Ash,

If Hillary can claim all of her experiences since graduating from law school, why can't Obama? Why does working 3 1/2 years as a community organizer not count? Why does being a state senator for several years (8) not count? [He's held elected office longer than Hillary] Does the legislation he's sponsored in the US Senate not count either? He works with Republicans, too. Check it out. http://thomas.loc.gov/
Posted by:KCMarch 5, 2008 1:12:55 PMRespond ^
There's just one problem and it's something that needs to be part of any comparison. Who's more likely to be able to achieve the goals they've put forth. Republicans have a strong dislike for Hillary Clinton and will not work with her if she's President. They can deal with her as a Senator because her impact is limited. But as President, any Republican who votes on a bill that Clinton supports will be branded a traitor. More than anything else, Republicans want to see Hillary Clinton fail as President. And judging by the way she campaigns, she's not good at finding compromise but expects people to follow her way. So even if her plans are better than Obama's, it won't matter if she can't make them real.
Posted by:DennyCraneMarch 7, 2008 1:14:19 PMRespond ^
I didn't read all the comments, but I did read that someone said that Edwards, Clinton and Obama based their plans on Arnold's. That is not true. They based it on Jacob Hacker's (a professor at Yale) plan. Edwards has been explicit about that. Clinton and Obama basically just picked up Edwards's plan a few months after he showed it wasn't too radical for the press.

As for the article, this is naive. When trying to determine what a candidate will do, what they say they will do is far less important than who funds them and who advises them. The health care plan Clinton is pushing now hurts insurance companies, becuase of the medicare buy-in. It strikes me as a little silly to think that Clinton, who raises lots of money from insurance companies and whose 93 plan was essentially a big giveaway to insurance companies, is going to follow through. That Clinton put foward a minimum wage bill in the middle of primary season is also not something that convinces me. In general she and the DLC favor market based approaches (so the EITC rather than robust unemployment insurance and welfare) and free trade. This is going to crush unions, the only group that forces the Democrats to stand firm on the minimum wage.

On issues of donors and advisers Obama is slightly better than Clinton. Not enough to get me to vote democratic, but I thought I should point out that a rigorous analysis means going beyond the websites the candidates offer.
Posted by:PoppolphilMarch 7, 2008 10:27:30 PMRespond ^
Obama loves free trade more than Clinton does, according to pro-globalization professor Bhgwhati, in a Financial Times (london) article
Posted by:tabathaMarch 9, 2008 11:40:18 AMRespond ^
Please do a piece on Winter Soldier 2008. There has been a major media black out of this event.

Also, could you please do a piece about the strip mining in Appalachia?

Thanks.


Posted by:Nancy GauquierMarch 17, 2008 1:31:27 PMRespond ^
What proof do you have of a "cult" following? Is this hearsay, fact or an assumption? Sen. Clinton has numerous relationships with back board dealings. I do not find this impressive. As to the experience, she has met with other countries as a "First Lady" not the president; and meetings where she had no decision making. You need to read more and make a better comparison of the two candidates. Sen. Clinton is not presidential material. She is campaigning on self needs not for the people.
Posted by:J. AnnMarch 20, 2008 3:06:52 PMRespond ^
Clinton is not capable to be in charge of a great of country as the United States, when she cant even control her pathetic husband, former president, Bill. If Clinton becomes president, The United States of America would FALL, and the citizens will too.

mark my words.
Posted by:AllyApril 1, 2008 2:35:44 PMRespond ^
why is hillary still running.i mean there is no point. a woman has never been elected in the history of the U.s
Posted by:Robert MApril 3, 2008 7:51:13 AMRespond ^
Robert your statement is proof positive that SEXISM is running amok in this country. Obviously your mother didn't raise you right.

Don't worry America, send us flowers and all will be forgiven. NOT!!!
Posted by:Lisa DApril 4, 2008 10:53:36 AMRespond ^
Well Don't Know who I will vote for. But I think I Needs to read the artical over . I hear some good stuff and bad.
Posted by:TishaApril 13, 2008 7:37:45 PMRespond ^
cool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by:feliciaApril 17, 2008 6:56:09 PMRespond ^
Stop busting Sharon Ash! No [deleted] she's supporting Clinton, but all flamers have been even more blatantly supporting Obama! If you're going to bash her, at least make yourself seem neutral. And why are you bashing, anyway? Everyone else on this stupid blog has been saying 'go obama' or 'go clinton' with very little regard to actual objectivity. State your opinion on the candidate and leave. NO ONE likes a bully.
If you don't got anything nice to say, SHUT UP.
Posted by:psu31April 21, 2008 9:07:52 PMRespond ^
People keep saying Hillary is dry and uninteresting. I went to see her speak two nights ago, and she was fantastic. I liked her much better than Obama; she was very informative, easy to understand. Obama just talks pretty and never mentions the things I need to know. She got straight to the point. Yes, Obama is eloquent, but we're not electing a PR person, people, we're electing someone who'll get the job done.
Also, I really find Obama's campaign distasteful. All I see are commercials bashing Hillary, and he talks about getting rid of Washington politics? Talk about hypocrisy! He's /using/ Washington politics! Frankly, I see less of that from Hillary than I do from Obama.
Posted by:gotmilkApril 21, 2008 9:12:18 PMRespond ^
what is real and what is fake??? we base our opinions on politics and media!
Posted by:anonymousApril 22, 2008 8:55:11 AMRespond ^
i hope obama really wins both elections
Posted by:G-DOGGApril 23, 2008 1:04:07 PMRespond ^
OBAMA BETTER WIN BECAUSE HILLARY CLINTON WANTS ALL MEXICAN PEOPLE TO GO BACK TO MEXICO. AND IM MEXICAN. PEOPLE CAN LIVE WHEREEVER THEY WANT!! FREE COUNTRY!!!!!
Posted by:SHINIMay 2, 2008 1:04:58 PMRespond ^
obama obama obama he's the best anyone who has a brain would see that clinton sucks and would vote for the right person which is OBAMA!!!!!!SO LETS ALL SAY IT OBAMA 08 :)
Posted by:qutishiaMay 6, 2008 11:48:32 AMRespond ^

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