Michael Pollan Fixes Dinner

America's favorite food intellectual talks about ethanol, the carrot lobby, and secularizing food. With audio.

—Photo: Martin Klimek/Zuma Press

Click here for an expert-led reader forum from April 13-17 on MotherJones.com around the question: Is organic and local so 2008?

Read the extended version of this interview here.

Mother Jones: What surprised you as you researched In Defense of Food?

Michael Pollan: One surprise is how deeply the food system is implicated in climate change. I don't think that has really been on people's radar until very recently. Al Gore didn't talk about it at all; 25 to 33 percent of climate change gases can be traced to the food system. I was also surprised that those diseases that we take for granted as what will kill us—heart disease, cancer, diabetes—were virtually unknown 150 years ago, before we began eating this way.


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MJ: When you first wrote the mantra "Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants," did you have any idea what kind of reaction you'd get?

MP: Well, I studied my poetry in school, and I knew there was something about the way it sounded that made it easy to remember. After writing The Omnivore's Dilemma I wanted to write a book that got past the choir, that got to people who didn't care about how their food was grown, but who did care about their health. I wanted to make it almost billboard simple. It started out as just "Eat food." But then I realized, Eh, not quite good enough. You've got to deal with the quantity issue. And then plants; the more you looked, the more you realized that the shortage of plants in our diet could explain a lot. Not that I'm against meat eating. I think we're eating too much. That's why I said "mostly plants."

MJ: Did you hear from the beef lobby?

MP: No, but there's another group, the Weston A. Price Foundation, who are fierce in their love of animal fat. And a lot of what they say is right, but they really don't like plants. People feel like they have to take sides on this plant/animal divide, and I don't think we do.

MJ: There's no dilemma?

MP: [Laughs.] No dilemma. And of course a lot of vegetarians were annoyed that I wasn't saying "all plants." It's a thicket. People have strong, quasi-religious views. Secularizing the issue is challenging.

MJ: Your books were once very personal and interior. Has the transition to being the public face of food activism been difficult?

MP: Very hard. You still have to draw lines between being a journalist and an activist. When Obama announced his pick for agriculture secretary I was disappointed, and I said so in some interviews. I got calls from very prominent activists saying, "You should really keep your powder dry because we want to have access to this guy." Who is this "we"? I felt like Tonto. And I realized that if you are an activist, you do respond tactically. But as a writer you have a pact with your readers that you'll be really straight with them.

MJ: So what do you think of Iowa governor Tom Vilsack heading Agriculture?

MP: There's reason to be very concerned. He oversaw a tremendous expansion of feedlot agriculture and confinement hog production, ruining the Iowa countryside, ruining the lives of many farmers. He helped gut local control over the siting decisions. He has also been very friendly toward Monsanto and genetically modified products and was named governor of the year by bio, the big biotech trade organization. But people I respect say that he will listen to food activists and is interested in helping Iowa to feed itself. It's a food desert, weirdly enough. All the raw material leaves the state and comes back in processed form. Putting the most positive spin I can on it: He's no longer governor of Iowa, and I'm hoping that as a politician, when he senses where the wind is moving, he'll move with it.

MJ: How much of our current agricultural policy can we lay at the feet of the Iowa caucuses?

MP: You can't be elected president without passing though Iowa and bowing down before corn-based ethanol, before agricultural subsidies. I mean, even McCain was a critic of ethanol, but when he got to Iowa he was singing a different tune. But this time around the candidates learned there is a progressive farm lobby. Iowa came close to electing a woman organic farmer as its agriculture secretary—until the Iowa Farm Bureau came after her. And Obama said he saw the importance of local control. That idea that there is a monolithic farm bloc—I wouldn't say it's starting to crumble, but there are interesting cracks. The challenge for the food reform movement is to make those cracks bigger.

MJ: Obama has praised corn-based ethanol.

MP: I think we'll see him back off of that because he's no longer a senator from Illinois, and he has to look at not only the national but the global implications of this folly. It's an experiment that's been disastrous. About 30 percent of the increase in grain prices could be attributed to the decision to embrace biofuels, particularly corn-based ethanol. It has done nothing for climate change, and the business is in real trouble now with the collapse of oil prices. It's completely dependent on subsidies and tariffs. I don't think it's proven itself to be of any value except to Archer Daniels Midland. And Obama appointed Steven Chu as secretary of energy, a fierce critic of corn-based ethanol, a physicist, and a Nobel Prize winner. It will be his job to argue the president and Vilsack out of corn-based ethanol.

MJ: Are all biofuels problematic?

MP: Well, we don't yet know about cellulosic ethanol. You can't yet do it economically because it takes a lot of energy to break cellulose down. And the kind of refineries that we've been building for corn will not work for cellulose. When you use farms to create fuel, you're going to have to replace that acre of farmland. So people deforest Indonesia, Brazil. It's very shortsighted and based on the fact that oil companies need a replacement liquid. It's what they're good at. And they have gas stations. And the idea that maybe the best way is a sustainably powered electrical grid that we all plug into doesn't sit well with oil companies; they don't have a seat at that table. That's why BP has given half a billion dollars to Berkeley to help develop cellulosic ethanol. I think that Obama will put a lot of money into it to help develop it. I just hope it's not wasted.

MJ: Ethanol producers have asked for part of the economic stimulus/bailout package.

MP: Can you believe it? They're only, like, two years old and they were started with subsidies and would not exist except for the fact that in 2006 President Bush began these mandates. Now, on top of that, they need a bailout.

MJ: If you had a magic wand, would you get rid of subsidies or reform them?

MP: I'd give farmers the exact same amount of money to do something else. It's a dead end to try and eliminate subsidies, because then you get all of America's farmers, who have political power out of all proportion of their number, unified against change. Right now the incentives are to produce as much as possible, whatever the costs to the environment and our health. But you can imagine another set of assumptions, so that they're getting incentives to sequester carbon. Or clean the water that leaves their farm, or for the quality, not the quantity, of the food they're growing.

MJ: Why is having a secretary of agriculture from an urban community, where the majority of eaters live, such an impossibility?

MP: Good question. For many, many years the interests of farmers and eaters were the same thing. When the great public health problem was not enough calories for everybody, having policies that encouraged farmers to produce as much as possible made sense. Now our problem is different; it is the poor who suffer disproportionately from diet-related illnesses and chronic diseases. So merely giving them enough calories is not the answer. One of the more encouraging things that Vilsack said was that he was going to put nutrition at the center of his nutrition programs, which must have struck a lot of listeners as, "Well, duh," but in fact nutrition has not been at the center; disposing of agricultural surplus has been. One thing to consider is getting these programs out of the Department of Agriculture. Eaters are the biggest interest group of all, and their interests are not being taken into account.

MJ: The food activism community is criticized as being elitist, blind to the issues of cost. How do we democratize better quality?

MP: It is the important question. One of the problems is that the government supports unhealthy food and does very little to support healthy food. I mean, we subsidize high fructose corn syrup. We subsidize hydrogenated corn oil. We do not subsidize organic food. We subsidize four crops that are the building blocks of fast food. And you also have to work on access. We have food deserts in our cities. We know that the distance you live from a supplier of fresh produce is one of the best predictors of your health. And in the inner city, people don't have grocery stores. So we have to figure out a way of getting supermarkets and farmers markets into the inner cities.

MJ: By mandates?

MP: When we give people on the wic [Women, Infants, and Children] program or food stamps farmers market vouchers, lo and behold, the farmers markets show up in those neighborhoods. That said, one of the best things that Obama could do would be build 12-month farmers markets, especially in inner cities, those beautiful glass buildings you see in Barcelona or Reading Terminal Market in Philadelphia. It would drive economic development and local agriculture.

The other way that you democratize the food movement is pay enough for the school lunch system to buy local food, fresh food, because right now it's all frozen and processed. You will improve the health of the students and the local economy. Supposedly it would take about a dollar per student per day.

MJ: Does wic still specify that you buy dairy?

MP: Yes. We had a huge fight to get a little more produce in the wic basket, which is heavy on cheese and milk because the dairy lobby is very powerful. So they fought and they fought and they fought, and they got a bunch of carrots in there. [Laughs.]

MJ: Specifically? Who knew: the carrot lobby?

MP: Specifically carrots. The next big lobby. But there is also money in this farm bill for fresh produce in school lunch. The price of getting the subsidies was getting the California delegation on board, and their price was $2 billon for what are called specialty crops—fresh fruit and produce grown largely in California.

MJ: Should we be trying to go as quickly as possible toward organic and local, or can the perfect be the enemy of the good?

MP: That's why I don't know if organic is the last word. It's sort of an all-or-nothing idea. People getting it partly right is very important. Getting your chickens out of those cages is important, even if you're not getting them organic feed. Those will not be organic eggs, but they will be so far superior. There are many varieties of sustainable agriculture we should support; it doesn't have to be a zero-sum game. Let a thousand flowers bloom, and let's see what works. The whole problem of industrial agriculture is putting all of your eggs in one basket. We need to diversify our food chains as well as our fields so that when some of them fail, we can still eat.

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Comments
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Michael Pollan re; Weston A. Price

It is a total fallacy to state that The Weston A. Price Foundation "really don't like plants". The "Nourishing Traditions Cookbook" is filled with chapters on "Fermented Vegetables & Fruits"(23 pages) "Sprouted Grains, Nuts & Seeds"(4 pages) Vegetable Salads (22 pages) A Catalog of Vegetables (48 pages), Grains & Legumes" (59 pages) Snacks & Finger Foods"(22 pages) Desserts(41 pages), & Beverages (14 pages). Not only do they like plants, they give in depth instruction on how to prepare the plants in order to derive the maximum nutritional benefit from the same. They do not advocate the use of refined flour, sugar, refined vegetable oils,caffeine, etc. They even have an index on limited time, limited budget guidelines, for those who believe it's too expensive to eat healthy.

Weston A. Price was a dentist from Cleveland who in the 1930's traveled all over the world, studying cultures who were still living on their traditional diets. Not only were these traditional peoples virtually free from tooth decay, but also from the degenerative diseases that plague our civilization. As soon as these cultures adopted the eating of refined sugars, refined flours, and other highly processed foods, their health very rapidly deteriorated. Though these cultures lived on what may seem dissimilar foods, their diets all had certain consistent things in common. One of those things is the importance of fat in the diet.

The Weston A Price Foundation advocates adhering to the dietary principles gleaned from his studies of the diets of traditional cultures. His book, "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration" is fascinating and still as intensely relevant as it was when it was published in 1939.

I would have thought Michael Pollan would be better informed about the Weston A. Price Foundation since they both advocate many of the same things. Of course, WAPF has been promoting the eating of real food a lot longer. I was actually hoping when I received my latest edition of "Mother Jones" that it would have an article about Weston A. Price.

The Weston Price/Nourishing Traditions people I know are champions of Michael Pollan's two most recent books(both of which I've read & recommended) & have even e-mailed video clips of his lectures. Mr. Pollan does them a disservice; we're on the same side!

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and don't forget...

The societies Dr. Price studied also had no crime and no depression. The well nourished people had more acute senses (Australian Aboriginals who could see stars we can't see without a telescope, even though they were relegated to the poorest terrain) We look pretty inept next to them!

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Very true...very true. Acai

Very true...very true.
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As the winter season is

As the winter season is approaching, you must start making preparations for it collecting all the necessary things you would require from warm clothes to boots as all these are must.

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So the solution to all of

So the solution to all of the federal meddling in food and ag is better federal meddling in food and ag? Kill the subsidies and gut the USDA, but don't go down the road of unintended consequences by putting local, organic, and other "preferred" producers on the same federal dole as commodities have been. Pollan didn't learn enough lessons from Salatin.

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right for me

Yes I agree with you. You are absolutely correct.

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So the solution to all of

So the solution to all of the federal meddling in food and ag is better federal meddling in food and ag? Kill the subsidies and gut the USDA, but don't go down the road of unintended consequences by putting local, organic, and other "preferred" producers on the same federal dole as commodities have been. Pollan didn't learn enough lessons from Salatin.

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I think it's probably a

I think it's probably a combination of strategies - the one that the WAPF people seem to be using that doesn't wait for anybody's permission or support - that's through grass roots organizations, community supported agriculture...

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This was kind of a

This was kind of a disappointing article. Not a lot of new information and kind of short. Is this an excerpt or the full interview?

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Michael is simply responding

Michael is simply responding to an open letter Sally Fallon wrote in her quarterly publication. She is the one who placed them on opposite sides.

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price and pollan

Pollan is well aware of weston price... he has a very informative section in his latest book, In Defense Of Food.

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re: Weston A. Price Foundation not liking plants

I have heard Sally Fallon speak, and one of the things she said was that green leafy vegetables were at least good for melting a lot of butter on, so there are definitely things she's said that could be taken as "doesn't really like plants."

And, although I think she has a lot of valuable info to share, I also get the strong impression (from seeing her presentations) that she is just not interested in any other point of view and that she dosen't have a solid understanding of how science works.

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semantics

Compare and contrast "they really don't like plants" with "they don't really like plants".

Trivial, but not insignificant.

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Compassion Over Killing

Michael Pollan says:

"One surprise is how deeply the food system is implicated in climate change. I don't think that has really been on people's radar until very recently. Al Gore didn't talk about it at all; 25 to 33 percent of climate change gases can be traced to the food system. I was also surprised that those diseases that we take for granted as what will kill us—heart disease, cancer, diabetes—were virtually unknown 150 years ago, before we began eating this way."

"A diet that can lead to heart attacks, cancer, and numerous other diseases cannot be a natural diet," writes Keith Akers in A Vegetarian Sourcebook (1983). "A diet that pillages our resources of land, water, forests, and energy cannot be a natural diet. A diet that causes the unnecessary suffering and death of billions of animals each year cannot be a natural diet."

As for "secularizing" food...that's not a problem for anyone except religious nuts and fanatics. PETA is 1.6 million strong (larger than any pro-life group), yet try and discuss animal rights and vegetarianism apart from religion with Christians (since we're not trying to "convert" them to another religion--we just want them to stop being cruel to animals), and all they can think of is the MOVE !

I understand there are conservative Christians who fear vegetarianism...which is kind of like being afraid of nonsmoking, nondrinking, or recycling. Ronald J. Sider of Evangelicals for Social Action, in his 1977 book, Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger, pointed out that 220 million Americans were eating enough food (largely because of the high consumption of grain fed to livestock) to feed over one billion people in the poorer countries.

A pamphlet put out by Compassion Over Killing says raising animals for food is one of the leading causes of both pollution and resource depletion today. According to a recent United Nations report, "Livestock's Long Shadow," raising chickens, turkeys, pigs, and other animals for food causes more greenhouse gas emissions than all the cars, trucks and other forms of transportation combined. Researchers from the University of Chicago similarly concluded that a vegetarian diet is the most energy efficient, and the average American does more to reduce global warming emissions by not eating animal products than by switching to a hybrid car.

A 2007 journal published by the American Dietetic Association found "meat protein production required 26 times more water than vegetable protein on rain-fed lands." The journal further states that dieticians "can encourage eating that is both healthful and conserving of soil, water, and energy by emphasizing plant sources of protein and foods that have been produced with fewer agricultural inputs."

"Livestock are one of the most significant contributors to today's most serious environmental problems. Urgent action is required to remedy the situation."

--Union Nations' Food and Agriculture Association

A single dairy cow produces approximately 120 pounds of wet manure per day, which is equivalent to that of 20 to 40 humans.

70% of the grain grown and 50% of the water consumed in the U.S. are used by the meat industry. (Audubon Society)

On average 990 liters of water are required to produce one liter of milk. (United Nations)

Over 260 million acres of U.S. forest have been cleared to grow grain for livestock. (Greenpeace)

It takes nearly one gallon of fossil fuel and 5,200 gallons of water to produce just one pound of conventionally fed beef. (Mother Jones)

Farmed animals produce an estimated 1.4 billion tons of fecal waste each year in the U.S. Much of this untreated waste pollutes the land and water.

The number of animals killed for food in the United States is 70 times larger than the number of animals killed in laboratories, 30 times larger than the number killed by hunters and trappers, and 500 times larger than the number of animals killed in animal pounds.

“If anyone wants to save the planet,” says Paul McCartney in a PETA interview from 2001, “all they have to do is stop eating meat. That’s the single most important thing you could do. It’s staggering when you think about it. Vegetarianism takes care of so many things in one shot: ecology, famine, cruelty. Let’s do it! Linda was right. Going veggie is the single best idea for the new century.”

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Brazilian Ethanol, cellulose, biodiesel...

It is a gross mistake blaming brazilian (sugarcane) ethanol for deforestation... MEAT is the real issue. Inneficient cattle farms, to be precise.
Brazil grows 7 million hectares (70,000 sq km) of sugarcane, half for sugar, half for ethanol.
On the other hand, it has the world's largest (productive) cattle count, 190 million heads (2007 figures), ocuppying 210 million ha - 60 TIMES AS MUCH land as ethanol.
Brazil's inneficient cattle farms (1.1 ha per cattle head) are a world appart from its otherwise advanced agricultural technology, which allowed the country to reach ever larger grain crops. The national agricultural R&D labs, EMBRAPA, are recognized as a world-class institution. I learned they have been working very hard to improve the poor yield of the cattle sector. They usually succeed.
Brazil is also doing extensive research in 2nd generation (cellulosic) ethanol, which could DOUBLE ethanol per-hectare yield from 7-8,000 L/ha to 15,000 L/ha - something like 100 barrels/hectare/yr. Full-size plants are expected to be operational in less than 10 yrs. Maybe even sooner in the US, if Obama lives up to his promise towards clean energy and stimulates the right technologies & industries.
Ideally, we should banish internal combustion engines (~20% efficient) from the planet ASAP... but, while we wait for the car of the future, ethanol may prove to be the only alternative, provided cars get more efficient (ethanol hybrids?!).
Biodiesel, OTOH, with only a fraction of ethanol's yield, should be avoided, except where recycling is possible. Microalgae may be a possible solution, but still too far away to be of any help.
As for the US corn ethanol, it is justifiiable only as an INTERIM solution, helping to stablish a steady demand, towards cellulosic ethanol to be made from farming and forestry residues. The US corn residue stock alone could possibly provide more ethanol than ever imagined.
Even as we evolve to full electric cars, ethanol (from residue only, hopefully) could be the fuel of choice for FUEL CELLS, for hydrogen storage is still a huge issue with no solution in sight.

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I found myself, after

I found myself, after reading shortly through the article angered. thinking, "how could this polished idealist, this new president, sell us out for yet even larger agribusiness".. and then, well, why doesn't he promote a slow type food mentality for the US and mega-agriculture to feed the rest of the world?.. i was ashamed to think this...
realizing that we have all now been lumped together with that which is or will become fodder in global control- food.
there is enough for everyone... rrrright?- learn to can, grow your own, co-op.. in every spare inch you can. now.

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Secularizing the Food Issue

For a person who loves God - Christian or not - there is nothing secular which is why I'll side with vasumurti in his incredulity about how, for most Christians, at least, food has escaped theological discussion and indeed, invokes indifference at best and fear and judgement at worst. I'm a Christian vegan - gasp! - and trying to even broach the subject of eating with all its implications for creation stewardship, holiness, righteousness, compassion, hope, faith and sin (remember gluttony?) - with my fellow Christians is proving to be quite a task. "God gave us permission to eat meat, so it's okay...." Ugh.

Thus was born my blog All Things New: A Christian Conversation on Food. I call it a conversation because that's really where it needs to start. I'm not just talking about convincing Christians that eating no or less meat is better all around for their health and the earth. No, the gospel has always been about the state of our heart and the attitudes and longings we hold there, and how Christ came in love and compassion to redeem and heal those attitudes and longings where they needed redeeming and healing. The change affected by the gospel in a believing heart is an inside-out one and that's what's needed here.

It's not the food we put in our bodies that will corrupt our spirits, but the attitudes and longings we have around and for food that are the potential issue. If our appetite for meat (or anything) is stronger than our appetite for compassion, holiness, kindness, responsible stewardship and care for creation - all the things God cares about - I'd say that's an appetite that needs to be redeemed and healed.

God has a higher standard than what is merely permissible, which He demonstrated on the cross: For no greater love has man than to give his life (which includes his meal) for a friend (which includes all creation). Christians have yet to let the beautiful, redeeming and healing light of the gospel shine on what, how, when, and with whom we eat, and illuminate a path for their lives that will draw them not only closer to God but to others.

Check out the blog, it's new and I would appreciate any input into the conversation. http://web.me.com/lstrovas/All_Things_New:_A_Christian_Conversation_on_Food/Welcome.html

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Correlation vs. Causation

diseases that we take for granted as what will kill us—heart disease, cancer, diabetes—were virtually unknown 150 years ago, before we began eating this way.

Correlation is not causation. Apparently the interviewee is not a trained scientist or statistician.

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chronic diseases unknown?

I'm sorry, but I have to comment on the very first paragraph of this interview. Cancer, heart disease, and diabetes were all described by the ancients, in Greece and China both, and probably elsewhere. I assume that Michael Pollan misspoke, and means that the incidence of these diseases was less than today, which is certainly true. However, the rise cannot be attributed purely to our diets. Heart disease and cancer have both exploded due to the spread around the world of recreational smoking; rates of cancer especially have been influenced by industrial pollutants, probably to an equal degree as by diet. And all three of these killers, especially diabetes, have also been aided and abetted by the decline in the amount of exercise we get these days, which some researchers think is an even more important factor than diet.
Sorry, okay I'm going back to read the rest now.

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food is getting so

food is getting so unhealthly now adays. People are not eating good. We need to help out farmers out to grow good food.

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diseases that we take for

diseases that we take for granted as what will kill us—heart disease, cancer, diabetes—were virtually unknown 150 years ago, before we began eating this way.

Correlation is not causation. Apparently the interviewee is not a trained scientist or statistician.
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Going green...including food

Preserving the environment should be our concern now and not tomorrow. Same thing with food. We should not take for granted the facts about food-borne illnesses. These diseases are killing humans softly but surely. This conversation is very timely because it tackles about food issue whether to go organic or not as we progress. For me, we should start thinking about the future of our next generation. Food should be all natural and refrain from further processing to the extent of "getting rid" of its natural nutrients.

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I assume that Michael Pollan

I assume that Michael Pollan misspoke, and means that the incidence of these diseases was less than today, which is certainly true. However, the rise cannot be attributed purely to our diets.

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This was kind of a

This was kind of a disappointing article. Not a lot of new information and kind of short. Is this an excerpt or the full interview?

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No, the gospel has always

No, the gospel has always been about the state of our heart and the attitudes and longings we hold there, and how Christ came in love and compassion to redeem and heal those attitudes and longings where they needed redeeming and healing. The change affected by the gospel in a believing heart is an inside-out one and that's what's needed here.

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Don't give me discount

Yes ,your article is very good, I have the same belief with you,so let me introduce the area to you.very cool - thanks for sharing!
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We should be careful about

We should be careful about food,if we are careless about food it cause many disease
like heart disease, diabetes.
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The change affected by the

The change affected by the gospel in a believing heart is an inside-out one and that's what's needed here.
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I completely agree

I completely agree with above mentioned article. We should be careful for our eatables. These having a major role in climate change as well in harmful diseases.

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Thanks

Thanks for the information.We must be careful about our food.
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I have heard Sally Fallon

I have heard Sally Fallon speak, and one of the things she said was that green leafy vegetables were at least good for melting a lot of butter on, so there are definitely things she's said that could be taken as "doesn't really like plants."

And, although I think she has a lot of valuable info to share, I also get the strong impression (from seeing her presentations) that she is just not interested in any other point of view and that she dosen't have a solid understanding of how science works.

Apples to apples

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This just goes to show that

This just goes to show that processed foods are more dangerous than we thought they were.

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Insightful

This is very insightful stuff. I mean the future is slowly but surely become everyone's focus from so many different angles. Mainly the environment and health. I love being informed.

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I also get the strong

I also get the strong impression (from seeing her presentations) that she is just not interested in any other point of view and that she dosen't have a solid understanding of how science works.
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vey interesting

good food is the future www.cateringglasgow.com

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Really we need this type of

Really we need this type of post which take our focus towards importance of healthy food otherwise now a days every body just want to eat junk food.

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Al Gore

I love the comment in the beginning on how Al Gore left out the impact of
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Hello

The study also found that 0.5 percent of climate change articles made any mention of the greenhouse gas emissions from livestock and meat production. Is it true?
Colon Cleanse

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I like your articles.

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