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The Burbs
Dana Goldstein suggests that we should fund more magnet schools in urban cores as a way of attracting suburban kids into the city and opening up slots for city kids in the suburbs. Matt Yglesias says this would probably have limited effectiveness, but still:
One way or the other, I can’t think of
any good reason for a governor who’s genuinely interested in improving opportunities for poor kids not to be trying something along these lines.
Well, I can think of a good reason: because suburban parents in this governor's state would go absolutely batshit insane over the idea. It would probably spell the end of his political career.
One of the great third rails of education policy debates is acknowledging the fact that suburban parents will flatly never go along with anything like this — at least not on a scale that makes any difference. For the most part they don't want to ship their kids to urban schools, even if they are magnets, and they really really don't want urban schools shipping a bunch of stoners and gangbangers to their nice suburban schools. And make no mistake: that is how they think of it, and all the research in the world showing that urban-suburban transfers don't affect educational outcomes won't budge them an inch.
I don't know what to do about this. But to some extent education is a zero-sum game. If we invest more money in inner-city schools, it means less for the suburbs. If we try to attract the best teachers to urban schools, it means that suburbs get weaker teachers. If we do it anyway, suburban parents will start sending their kids to private schools. And the point at which public support for No Child Left Behind evaporates is the point at which suburban schools start "failing" in large numbers. That isn't something suburban parents will tolerate, and they'll simply vote out of office anyone who tries to make them.
Even on a purely voluntary basis, I suspect that fostering "regional partnerships between urban and suburban districts" will never have more than a tiny impact. Suburban parents just can't be talked into it, and when it comes to educational policy suburban parents rule. Programs like the Harlem Children's Zone or the KIPP schools may have mixed track records, but at least they're both promising and feasible on a large scale. My guess is that they're both better prospects for long-term change than trying to merge city and suburb. I'm happy to be talked out of this, though.
San Francisco has language
San Francisco has language magnet schools that are stupidly, wildly popular.
Children are fully immersed in a language from Kindergarten, and by 5th grade the ciriculum is 50/50 English/whatever. They do Cantonese, Spanish, Mandarin, not sure what else.
Formerly marginal schools with the new language ciriculum become hot and are hard to get into.
So there are circumstances where it can be done...
Your short post laid
Your short post laid Kevin’s theory of suburban parents not sending their children to urban schools completely on its back. But did you have to use the word “stupidly”?
I can only assume Kevin doesn’t have children so he really can’t know what parents will or will not do in terms of their kids education. Certainly they are not keen shipping their kids across town for some societal good. But deliver a program that will give their kids a fundamental edge and they’ll haul them where ever. Not all parents of course and that’s the way it should be, but some will and that has clearly been shown to be true with immersion programs. My own two children went through a K-5th grade immersion program and it too was ‘wildly’ popular and successful. Can this have “anything more than a tiny impact”? Of course it can, but it starts with delivering programs that parents and children want. And of course that’s not going to happen because it threatens the entire educational bureaucracy- from administration straight down to the teacher’s union.
I wonder why the author of “San Francisco has language” called the program “stupidly, wildly popular”? Why is it that people must be demeaned just because they don’t hold the same values? In the same vein Kevin wrote, “a bunch of stoners and gangbangers to their nice suburban schools” which is to call suburban parents ‘racists’. Kevin must have a very high opinion of himself to demean an entire group of people that don’t hold his view. It is not so ironic that this is the very thing he criticizes of conservatives.
Suburban Resistance
they really really don't want urban schools shipping a bunch of stoners and gangbangers to their nice suburban schools.
I dunno. I grew up in a suburb of Boston, not too long after the busing crisis, in a community that was practically founded by white flight. People were pretty open about their racism in those days. Nevertheless, we did have a program for inner-city black kids to attend our schools, and I don't remember anyone complaining about it or the students.
I certainly wouldn't try to push something like the old busing program -- I'm sure the suburbanites would go as nuts today as they did in the 70s -- but small-scale and less coercive initiatives probably wouldn't face much resistance.
The home of the warriors?
Is that a picture of Woodbr. High School? I never went, although a parent teaches there, and I haven't visited in a long time. (I know, bad son.)
I think Kevin generally is
I think Kevin generally is correct. The only part I would disagree with is that funding is zero sum. If a state increases funds to urban and/or rural schools, wealthy suburbs will continue to be well funded through local taxes.
Magnet Schools
I'm in Fairfax County, VA and I'm afraid that there is much truth to Kevin's cynacism. However, WITHIN a school district, urban or suburban, designating a failing school (however that is decided) into a magnet or gifted and talented school can be the start of a winning solution. Magnet and G/T draw on better resources and teacher pools, and several schools in the DC public schools as well as Title 1 schools here in Fairfax County have benefited from such ideas -- more affluent parents do sacrifice advantages of neighborhood schools for outstanding programs and less affluent parents benefit from the enhanced resources and everyone benefits from the mix of economic classes (which is a good indicator of school turnaround) and diversity. Again, I think it is only likely to work WITHIN an already existing school district, but it's worth trying.
The real question we should
The real question we should be asking is whether or not all the funding in the world is going to make up for parents that do not value or encourage education.
I really hate the phrase "white flight" because it really is less about color and more about the value placed on education. I doubt most parents care what the racial composition at the schools their children attend - as long as they were students with a high priority on education and excelled at such. There's only so much a teacher can do -- even one paid $100k a year -- with students that place no value on learning and parents who are uninvolved with their child's education.
Works in Wake County (Raleigh-area) NC
That's exactly what we've got going on here and it seems to work fine as far as I can tell. In fact, I'm amused at the number of my friends who ship their kids off downtown so they can go to a "magnet" school while the schools we have here in the burbs (Cary, NC) are already great. Meanwhile, my kids' elementary school has a number of poor kids bused in from Raleigh (we do it by income, not race) and I've never heard a complaint from my fellow white Cary suburbanites. I would say, don't underestimate parents' absurd willingness to have their students in the "best" or most "prestigious" school.
Student reassignment complaints
The complaints come when your friends' children are forcibly reassigned out of their neighborhood school to another school simply to balance the percentage of low income students at schools. As you know, this happens frequently with Wake County admitting that 1/2 to 1/3 of student reassignments are done solely for diversity reasons. 25,000+ students are slated to be reassigned in the next 3 years alone.
This is extremely unpopular among parents and opponents of this policy are gearing up for school board elections in October in hopes of electing 4 school board members to overturn this policy. See www.wakesca.org for details.
They already do this with
They already do this with capacity issues.
So... What exactly is your argument? That being reassigned a school is unpopular? No shit, sherlock.
The point is that it is even
The point is that it is even more unpopular when your kid is being "drafted" to be forcibly bused far from home to attend a different school year after year solely for the purposes of balancing low income student percentages. Some reassignments are for growth, but others are to balance student populations.
Where's the research showing that middle class students benefit by being forcibly bused to a higher poverty school? This is what happens all the time in Wake County.
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Wake County, NC as an example
Personally I would like to see the research showing the urban minority students are helped by magnet schools. Here in Wake County, NC, the 18th largest school district in the country, we have a nationally renowned integration program that is a combination of (extremely unpopular among parents) forced student (re-)assignment for diversity and magnet program that has a socioeconomic diversity component for acceptance.
North Carolina publishes the results of state End of Grade (grades 3-8) and End of Course (high school) tests at www.ncreportcards.org. Looking at the results, low income (ED) and minority students do terrible in magnet schools compared to more segregated school districts like Charlotte-Mecklenburg.
Check out our 3 magnet high schools. Look for End of Course results by race and socioeconomic status (ED - economically disadvantaged, NED - non-economically disadvantaged):
http://www.ncreportcards.org/src/schDetails.jsp?Page=2&pSchCode=348&pLEACode=920&pYear=2007-2008
http://www.ncreportcards.org/src/schDetails.jsp?Page=2&pSchCode=562&pLEACode=920&pYear=2007-2008
http://www.ncreportcards.org/src/schDetails.jsp?Page=2&pSchCode=412&pLEACode=920&pYear=2007-2008
and compare with some of Charlotte-Mecklenburg's magnets (a school district roughly the same size as Wake but with about twice the poverty rate):
http://www.ncreportcards.org/src/schDetails.jsp?Page=2&pSchCode=576&pLEACode=600&pYear=2007-2008
http://www.ncreportcards.org/src/schDetails.jsp?Page=2&pSchCode=405&pLEACode=600&pYear=2007-2008
Look at Enloe High School (Wake's flagship magnet high school). The passing rate on End-of-Course tests is 45.2% for blacks and 40.5% for low income students. At Harding University High in Charlotte, the rate is 62.8% for blacks and 61.3% for low income students.
Charlotte's magnet high schools blow away Wake's in black and low income student performance. How do you explain that? How come Wake's vaunted diversity program does not result in better performance in its flagship magnet high schools?
Those statistics don't say
Those statistics don't say what you think they do.
They don't say what those specific students were doing for scores before they arrived or after they leave. That's the important numbers: Do the students do better or worse when their situation is changed?
You can't compare two school districts as if they were the same, or fifth grade classes every year - that's not the product. The product is the students: Is the class that was fifth grade one year and sixth grade the next improving? What about the students added or subtracted from that group, how are they doing?
It's the students, stupid.
I understand that, but Wake
I understand that, but Wake County refuses to use software, the Education Value Added Assessment System from SAS, provided for free to school districts by the North Carolina Department of Public Instruction that would be able to make that determination by measuring individual student progress. As a result, we're left with the statistics we have.
Are you claiming the low income and minority kids attending the Charlotte magnet high schools are better prepared when they enter high school? Doesn't this reflect positively on Charlotte schools and negatively on Wake schools? Thanks for making my point.
I'm in Atlanta metro, and
I'm in Atlanta metro, and sorry to say, but I would also oppose any scheme where kids have to take long bus rides just to go to school. This is bad for several reasons: bad for the environment, lowers quality of life due to a long commute, and lessens the chance that parents will get involved with the school since it will be so far away. I am in the suburbs and volunteer at my kids' school. In fact, lots of parents volunteer, which is good for the school, and good for our kids. I know I have had the opportunity to chat with teachers and familiarize myself with the school and members of the staff. If you put the school very far away that means less parental involvement, which would also hold true for urban kids traveling to the suburbs. The one county that still does busing had poor test scores, so I just don't think it is a good idea, even if what you suggest is "kinder, gentler" busing.
The problem is one of inner
The problem is one of inner city culture, not of school choice.
In Silicon Valley and the
In Silicon Valley and the North West, the magnet/charter schools are in the urban cores. And while parents would like to move closer to them, they generally don't.
So even in situations where this is the case, it doesn't really seem to change the outcome... And I don't know how it would work in the largest of cities.
But paying inner city teachers more to do more seems like a good idea, either way. They incur costs at a higher rate than suburban schools. Just like Rural schools spend more on gas, we should really think about this and do it, rather than worry about parental equality.
Urban-Suburban Education
This is one of your more superficial posts, Kevin.
We are white and live in a suburb of Milwaukee and sent all three of our kids to an inner city magnet school where they got both a great education and a richer cultural experience than would have been available at our suburban high school.
Check out the Chapter 200 Program that runs in metropolitan Milwaukee. Granted, it was established as a negotiated settlement to a suit brought against the Milwaukee Public School system by the NAACP for failure to integrate properly. But the program has been running for decades and has benefited both urban and suburban students. While my kids were in school, the city sent approximately five students to the suburbs for every suburban student who went into the city.
Nothing to do with urban vs. suburban schools, BUT...
...reducing the number of students per school would go a long way toward creating a more personal and community-like environment, regardless of where the schools are located. We send kids to huge, anonymous schools that resemble corporate headquarters and wonder why things are the way they are.
Coming from a school with a
Coming from a school with a graduating class of 180, I had this opinion as well. But now that my son is in one of the largest schools in Virginia (in the largest school district in Virginia) I've stopped thinking it is so black and white.
While the size of the student body is large, the school is well run, and the teachers know the students, indeed, they go out of the way to be sure to know them. The principals are quick to respond to parental concerns and they are very on top of things such as class changes and lunch room "dead space" where a lot of trouble starts.
Because of the size, my son has an opportunity to take part in extracurriculars that my smaller school could never have offered. His pool for making friends is large enough to accommodate that most unusual of students instead of everyone being defined early on and not being able to redefine themselves amongst their peers. Again, I'm not saying that large schools are good, just that they don't have to be bad.
As a conservative, I have to
As a conservative, I have to disagree. My experience is that conservatives really do care about people. What they hate is financing programs that waste money and will not work. It makes for compelling echo chamber chatter to insist that the enemies of the poor are the greedy conservatives, but it just isn't true.
It is my opinion that most conservatives are very much in favor of financing great teachers to teach in lower income neighborhoods. Ever hear of Jaime Escalante? The real problem is the teacher's unions.
1. Great teachers would have to be paid on merit recognized by a superior ( like their principal ) rather than by formula of years of experience and years of education and/or degrees.
2. Principals would have to be allowed to fire teachers who would not keep discipline in their classrooms.
3. "Combat pay" would have to be approved for very good disciplinarians who can survive and actually teach something to the kids in an inner city school. Their salaries would be higher than other teachers.
4. Just my observation, but probably most of the teachers who would have the strength of will and presence to keep order in the classroom and be effective teachers would be male. These schools would have to be exempt from having equal amount of teachers be female.
I don't think the teacher's unions would ever allow something like this. Sad, because the liberals that want good inner city schools will never admit that this is the real problem.
I'll wait to get started with the ad hominem.
"Just my observation, but probably most of the teachers who would have the strength of will and presence to keep order in the classroom and be effective teachers would be male. These schools would have to be exempt from having equal amount of teachers be female."
Please explain your relationship to education in general, specifically the public schools. I have a sneaking suspicion that you have none, but I'll wait before I pile on with the ad hominem.
"1. Great teachers would
"1. Great teachers would have to be paid on merit recognized by a superior ( like their principal ) rather than by formula of years of experience and years of education and/or degrees.
2. Principals would have to be allowed to fire teachers who would not keep discipline in their classrooms."
I always love it when anti-unionists bring this one up, because it assumes that all (not most, but ALL) public school principals are principled and/or competent.
It also assumes that all your principals will prioritize teacher assessment and retention highly enough to have credible means of rating them.
And finally, there never seems to be any mention at all of due process or appeals. Because it assumes, of course, that all principals are infallible.
But please, keep on talking. I'm waiting for the solution that involves unicorns and the tooth fairy.
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