- ‹ previous
- 642 of 2798
- next ›
Yet More on High Frequency Trading
Jon Stokes has more about high frequency trading over at Ars Technica. His piece doesn't address the allegations that HFT shops engage in front running (i.e., sneaking a look at stock prices a few milliseconds before anyone else), but focuses instead on "pure" HFT strategies. For example:
One of the most important uses for HFT is to get the best price for very large stock orders by breaking them up into small orders of random sizes and hiding the activity from other traders, who, on sensing that a large order is in progress, might take advantage of that knowledge by making moves that would impact the stock price....
Some categories of "predatory algos" closely monitor the markets in order to sniff out exactly these types of hidden large orders, so that the algo can trade against them. For instance, if a predatory algo detects that someone is trying to hide a large sell order for [Intel] by trickling it out into the market in small blocks, it might work to bid down the price of [Intel] just a bit so that it can pick up those blocks at a discount and then sell them for a profit when the share price floats back up to the market's earlier, non-manipulated valuation.
It kinda reminds me of Charlie Stross's fictional Economics 2.0 — an automated economy that runs so fast no human being can keep up with it. In an interview at Felix Salmon's blog, Stokes adds this comment about the allegedly gigantic trading profits generated by HFT:
To justify this $20B/year “fee” you have to make the case that the market system as a whole is getting something of value to all the payers in return. So supporters will say that it’s the price of liquidity and innovation, and, besides, they’ll argue, everyone who has been participating in the markets for decades has been paying these hidden liquidity taxes (and I’d rather call them taxes than fees) to specialists and any other market maker. But when you see this tax ballooning at Internet speed — much the same way that finance has ballooned as a portion of GDP — you have to take a step back and ask, “what is the real, fundamental benefit that we’re all paying for here when we collectively direct money into this?”
This, of course, is a question we've been asking about a lot of financial innovation lately: how, exactly, does it benefit anyone other than the tiny band of Wall Street zillionaires who collect fees from it all? And Felix adds this:
My bottom line is that HFT is a black box which very few people understand, and that one thing we’ve learned over the course of the crisis is that if there’s a financial innovation which doesn’t make a lot of sense and which is hard to understand, there’s a good chance there’s systemic risk there. Is it possible that HFT is entirely benign and just provides liquidity to the market? Yes. But that seems improbable to me.
John Hempton offers a contrary view here. He's very skeptical of the $20 billion number that's been tossed around lately, and in any case says that trading is a whole lot cheaper today than it was in the past even if the HFT folks are skimming a cut off the top. That's unquestionably true, but I'm not sure it's a very good defense. If Wal-Mart overcharges every customer by a penny, it's still wrong even if you're saving money compared to the corner market. Add in the potential systemic instabilities caused by the HFT black box, and I think the burden of proof should be on the high frequency community to convince us that what they're doing is safe and worthwhile, not the other way around.









Some categories of "predatory algos" closely monitor the markets in order to sniff out exactly these types of hidden large orders, so that the algo can trade against them. For instance, if a predatory algo detects that someone is trying to hide a large sell order for [Intel] by trickling it out into the market in small blocks, it might work to bid down the price of [Intel] just a bit so that it can pick up those blocks at a discount and then sell them for a profit when the share price floats back up to the market's earlier, non-manipulated valuation.



















Make trading open,
Make trading open, transparent, completely automated, and regulate it as a utility.
What the above Anonymous
What the above Anonymous said, AND ensuring all offers stay in the system for 500ms
Throwing Your Life Away
One of the questions I have always had about such activities is why any intelligent, creative person would want to spend his life doing zero sum games for banks. And as I understand it, these people work all the time.
I suppose a Park Ave. coop and a Hamptons beach house are nice, but what is it like to look back on your life and acknowledge that you were nothing but a high-end bookie?
innovation in finance
These days, when I hear the term "financial innovation", I hide my money under the mattress.
Cui bono?
I explained this HFT strategy yesterday in Kevin's Cui bono? thread.
The HFT programs issue ultra fast bids or offers that won't trade in order to probe the price limits of the algo trades. The solution I proposed is to disallow such trades to obtain information if they are set not to execute. If a trade is placed to cancel without executing, it should not be able to learn whether it would have executed. This would make this strategy worthless.
As for the liquidity argument, the HFT traders compare themselves to the specialists of past days. But the important difference is that specialists had certain olbigations.
One, the specialists couldn't trade ahead of retail custormers. HFT traders do.
Two, the specilalists were required to step up when there were no retail customers. HFT traders are not so required. They just walk away.
These two differences are crucial.
bank robbers free up capital for markets
Organized crime argues skimming casino revenues also facilitates capital liquidity. Drug money launderers facilitate capital liquidity, too. Bank robbers free up capital for markets. Counterfeiters expand the money supply. HFT traders belong to this group of capitalists.
Solution - very small trading sales tax
tagged as:- solution
If the government imposed a very small trading tax on each transaction, say .0005, then it would essentially destroy HFT and not effect anybody else.
Why do they do it?
bob h,
Why do intelligent, creative people do this? For the money, of course.
When I graduated college with my electrical engineering degree years ago I had a choice between at least two legal areas - design weapons or work for some incredibly boring but clean (at the time) computer company.
Why did I do it? My natural talents were for electrical engineering and I wanted enough money to enjoy myself, to eventually settle down, and later to raise a family.
I think the desire to 'make the world a better place' comes later to many people. As long as their activity is legal who can really look down on them?
I don't blame the grunts for this. I mostly blame the higher ups who should know better, those with enough wisdom to see that they are risking the integrity of the market itself for short term gain. Those people should know better.
Tripp
Trippp: "I mostly blame the
Trippp: "I mostly blame the higher ups who should know better, those with enough wisdom to see that they are risking the integrity of the market itself for short term gain."
I don't agree. We can blame them all we want, but it won't change anything. To play the devil's advocate: the higher ups should rationally (selfishly, if you prefer) favor short term gains that will line their pockets over vs. long term integrity that may not.
We need regulation and enforcement. Con artists are a dime-a-dozen and will always operate when allowed. The problem is that congress and the president are, as Sen. Durbin recently observed, owned by the banks. The banks are like the Mafia - they know it's good business practice to spread a little of the wealth to key people. The difference between the banks and the Mafia? As a proportion of their revenues, the Mafia is far more generous (but the banks get a better ROI).
Exactly right. Many market
Exactly right.
Many market participants have known for a while that "flash orders" should not be legal. But because they are, and their competitors use them, they have to use them too -- or lose their competitive edge. To quote from a current news story:
Greifeld has actually written a letter to the SEC asking for the elimination of flash orders as well as other structures used with HFT. The SEC has been asleep at the wheel. This is a regulation failure, as Alex points out. Markets will not avoid aberrant behavior through the self-restraint of their participants if money can be made otherwise.
There are many things conflated under "HFT" in the recent news explosion. Flash orders should clearly be illegal. But HFT encompasses a lot more, some of which is not harmful.
alex, To stretch the analogy
alex,
To stretch the analogy even further, in our current "company town" the bankers own the sheriff.
But yeah, I should not blame people for being selfish. Instead we need checks and balances. We need at least two parties keeping their eyes on each other. The markets need the government and the government needs the markets.
Tripp
As a sort of advice beware
As a sort of advice beware of dealing with people, we have a doubtful economy today the act fraud and underground economy are rampant. We have to be grateful for we have Mary Schapiro who duly performs his job in investigating a malpractice with the issue of Flash Trading. This is to eliminate the possible fraud or swindling among investors. Security and Exchange Commission Chair Mary Schapiro is set to begin investigating the practice, and the SEC is considering a flash trading ban. New York Senator Charles Schumer is completely in favor of a ban, and it may take some payday loans at least to find out who has been flash trading.
UvKLBLgpRmW
If you have to do it, you might as well do it right.,
wReaQzvcRjy
Very cute :-)))),
zXIZEZRJyX
I want to say - thank you for this!,