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Italy's Rendition Trial
An Italian court has convicted 23 American CIA agents in absentia for their role in kidnapping a Muslim cleric from the streets of Milan and then flying him off to Egypt to be tortured. "Here, Italian law rules, not American law or any other law," the Italian prosecutor said.
Well, maybe. Here are the details:
Judge Oscar Magi handed an 8-year sentence to Robert Seldon Lady, a former C.I.A. station chief in Milan, and 5-year sentences to 22 other Americans. Three of the other high-ranking Americans were given diplomatic immunity, including Jeffrey Castelli, a former C.I.A. station chief in Rome.
The judge did not convict three high-ranking Italians charged in the abduction, citing state secrecy, and a former head of Italian military intelligence, Nicolò Pollari, also received diplomatic immunity. All the Americans were tried in absentia and are considered fugitives.
Let me get this straight: the Italian judge was happy to convict a bunch of Americans who he knew would never pay a price since they'll never be extradited, but he wasn't willing to convict the Italians involved in all this, who would have paid a price. You'll excuse me, I hope, if I don't exactly see this as a triumph of judicial independence. Convicting a bunch of foreigners is easy. It's holding your own people to account that's hard. Wake me up when either of our countries starts doing that.
Rendition
You must want a 100 year nap.
wake up?
You will be deprived of sleep until you confess the CIA only defends democratic values.
Not correct!
I don't think that's entirely accurate. The court did give prison sentences to two italian agents according to this BBC article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8343123.stm):
The two Italian agents, who were convicted as accomplices to kidnapping, were given three-year prison terms.
The court also ruled that those convicted must pay 1m euros ($1.5m) in damages to Abu Omar and 500,000 euros to his wife.
"he wasn't willing to
"he wasn't willing to convict the Italians involved in all this, who would have paid a price"
As pointed out he did in fact convict and jail italian agents.
The italians who were acquitted were acquitted basically because the italian Constitutional Court had ruled that most of the evidence linking them to the crime was inadmissable as evidence.
Though I take it the
Though I take it the convicted American cannot visit Italy, and perhaps other countries in the EU, on pain of being imprisoned, which is a punishment of a kind.
Rule of Law is limited to the jurisdiction of the law
tagged as:- result
Look. These CIA guys were following US orders. They concluded that the orders included violating Italian law but they followed US orders. The Italian judge was enforcing Italian law.
To apply the Rule of Law the Italian Judge was limited to the application Italian Law. That includes Italian rules including what was admissible. He did that. Did the Italian executive attempt to subvert the effort of of the Italian Judge to apply the Rule of Law? It looks like it. The Judge punished those he could reach within the Rule of Law in Italy.
The CIA agents were guilty of both violating the Italian Law and of extreme carelessness in the level of obviousness in which they did that. OK. Their job often includes violating the local law of the countries in which they operate. Their job does NOT include the stupidity of doing it obviously so that they can be caught. The fact that they were caught is a failure of leadership in the CIA.
A competent American administration might have been able to deal with the problem through diplomatic channels, assuming that the job the CIA did could be sold to the Italian administration as essential. The ability of the Bush administration to coordinate the use of diplomacy is abysmal. This is another failure for which they can be blamed. A good diplomat and diplomatic effort should have been able to make a good case that the rendition was necessary. But was it? That's something the CIA leadership should have been prepared to deal with, and they weren't. This is in addition to the fact that it was the responsibility of the CIA leadership that the CIA agents SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN CAUGHT or even catchable.
Other than internal Italian politics (which I have seen nothing about) this is entirely a failure of the Bush administration and of Cheney and the CIA leadership they appointed. The Italian judicial system was too far into the legal process by the time Obama took over to have been changed.
In short, this was the fault of George Bush, Dick Cheney and George Tenet. They were simply incompetent, and the CIA agents are being blamed for their incompetence.
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Perhaps I'm mixing up my
Perhaps I'm mixing up my Italian spooks, but didn't Pollari have something to do with the forged Niger documents? Also.
I believe you are quite right ...
I recognize the name - at first I thought "No, that can't be right - he died in a hail of bullets after being involved in recovering a hostage." Different dude.
I think that his position - way up the food chain - might be part of why I remember seeing his name during one of many post-Friday-document-dump discussions, but he may also have been the go-to guy for intelligence chicanery.
Wake up Kevin!
You said:
__________
“You'll excuse me, I hope, if I don't exactly see this as a triumph of judicial independence. Convicting a bunch of foreigners is easy. It's holding your own people to account that's hard. Wake me up when either of our countries starts doing that.”
__________
The important issue here is that “someone” has finally brought the US extraordinary rendition program into a courtroom. Of course the Italians aren’t going to convict their own people, those who were coerced by the CIA to take these actions. That point is meaningless. If you connot see beyond this, you’ve really got a problem.
The Italians were the first to “legally” approach the US rendition program that sent many people (most who were innocent) off to be tortured in other nations.
Viva Italia.
The wrong persons are being blamed
I agree with you. This is the fault of the Bush administration and the top management of the CIA. The Italian courts can only judge the foot soldiers, but they were following orders.
The real blame belongs to people who will never be named in court anywhere.
Wake Up Kevin!
You said:
__________
“You'll excuse me, I hope, if I don't exactly see this as a triumph of judicial independence. Convicting a bunch of foreigners is easy. It's holding your own people to account that's hard. Wake me up when either of our countries starts doing that.”
__________
The important issue here is that “someone” has finally brought the US extraordinary rendition program into a courtroom. Of course the Italians aren’t going to convict their own people, those who were coerced by the CIA to take these actions. That point is meaningless. If you connot see beyond this, you’ve really got a problem.
The Italians were the first to “legally” approach the US rendition program that sent many people (most who were innocent) off to be tortured in other nations.
Viva Italia.
Kev, the Italian Supreme
Kev, the Italian Supreme Court wouldn't allow the judge to consider the evidence that tied the Italians to the crime, claiming state secrets. This is 1) not the fault of the judge who decided the case, and 2) not wholly unreasonable from a legal standpt, since it's normal and arguable that domestic intel agencies are protected by domestic secrecy laws whereas foreign agents are not.
Otherwise, I share your skepticism.
I think Kevin Drum should
I think Kevin Drum should get the proper information before making such generic comments.
There ARE Italian agents who have been convicted.
Sadly, the top two guys, Pollari and Mancini, got away with it thanks to the state secret law.
However, two people already reached guilty plea bargains in earlier stages of the trial (agent Giuliano Pironi, whose testimony was crucial, and journalist Renato Farina).
Furthermore, Pio Pompa and Luciano Seno, italian agents, have been convicted.
Castelli got diplomatic immunity (so there is an American who got away with it).
So, this is a proof that the trial was fair, in spite of all the pressure on judges and prosecutors.
It is a triumph of justice if people who committ illegal acts with such a sense of impunity, eventually end up being investigated.
Kevin, why are you so loathe to correct posts?
As other commenters have pointed out, two Italians were sentenced to jail terms. Why not correct the post to reflect this?
What grounds now for languid cynicism?
Now that the easily accessible facts have been presented to you, Mr. Drum, and the false equivalences undermined, would you mind printing a reconsideration?
Let's go over some key details again:
Reuters (emphasis added):
and:
Judge Magi and Prosecutor Spataro didn't "hold their own people to account"? You'll excuse me, I hope, if I don't exactly buy the alleged equivalence between the level of effort towards legal and political accountability in the two countries, nor the hardly disinterested "pox on all houses" schtick we've seen from American pundits so many times before.
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